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MommyD
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Have you been keeping up with the debate between Danielle Bean and Greg Popcak?? I have really lost a lot of respect for Dr. Popcak and I practice AP!!! I was really shocked by the idea that "bonding" is a serious reason to use NFP, as if bonding only happens when you are the youngest child! And choosing to not use NFP does NOT automatically make one a providentialist!
Melissa
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Bridget
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This is an old argument for Popcak. He has been going around and around with large families for years over this issue.
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Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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Lisbet
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I wasn't sure if this was a good place to discuss it. I just have to say though, I don't get why AP and not intentionally monitering fertility/spacing babies cannot work well together? We have always practiced AP, quite frankly for many of the reasons Dr. Popcak shares, but above all because Dh and I have prayerfully discerned that it is what we are called to do. (practicing it is certainly not opposed to church teaching, nor is not practicing it!) We have also discerned that thus far in our marriage, we have not been led to moniter fertility or space our babies. What Dr. Popcak fails to talk about is Supernatural Grace to do the day in day out of what Our Lord is asking of us. I know, because I live it every breathing moment, that AP and closely spaced children can work beautifully hand in hand, because God pours abundant graces to make it possible.
Another point that I have come to learn along this whole mothering journey is that when I had 1 and 2 children, AP was just that, Attachment PARENTING. And while I definetly still consider our parenting attachment parenting, we have grown to AF - Attachment FAMILY-ING! :) Siblings become very attached to one another, they help meet each others needs, and help meet the needs of the baby. They help ME meet the needs of the littest ones. Thus, there is MUCH more bonding and attaching going on in a big family!
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
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Isaac, 11
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Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: Jan 11 2008 at 8:56am | IP Logged
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Lisbet wrote:
| I just have to say though, I don't get why AP and not intentionally monitering fertility/spacing babies cannot work well together? |
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Me neither. But I might be "nutters." 
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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lapazfarm
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I have to say I've lost a lot of respect as well. For the reasons you ladies have pointed out and for his stubborn insistance that AP is synonymous with attachment. As if a parent does not attach with a child unless AP is practiced, or somehow the bond is inferior. Baloney.
I don't want to debate AP because I generally think it is a good thing, but I also have problems when anyone insists one method is "best" for everyone.
I also think he is deliberately twisting what Danielle was saying.
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Theresa
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Lisbet
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| Posted: Jan 11 2008 at 9:02am | IP Logged
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OH Elizabeth! You nailed it!!! That is exactly what I couldn't figure out from everything I read from Dr. Popcak - where does he figure grace into all of this???
As a kind of side note, I'm not real sure I understand the full meanings of "Providentalist", "providentalitst" and being "completely open". I guess when I get right down to it, for me, it's all trusing that God will 'provide' all the grace necessary?
...nutters? hmmm, guess I am!
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
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Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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Willa
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Lisbet wrote:
| And while I definetly still consider our parenting attachment parenting, we have grown to AF - Attachment FAMILY-ING! :) Siblings become very attached to one another, they help meet each others needs, and help meet the needs of the baby. They help ME meet the needs of the littest ones. Thus, there is MUCH more bonding and attaching going on in a big family! |
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Very well said!
I am a convert to Ccatholicism and the oldest of three children myself. I didn't really understand large family dynamics until I got to the point where I was stretched beyond my quite limited human resources.
I think you point to the a priori assumption that he is making (I've only read Dr Popcak's last post so I don't have the whole picture) -- the assumption is that you need X amount of spacing between children in order to provide them with the best environment.
I am not sure this is always and everywhere true. The assumption is one I've read many times in the secular parenting literature but I am not sure it has been examined thoroughly.
I was one of those who started practicing AP and found my fertility limited -- ecological breastfeeding for example would keep me from returning to my cycles for two whole years. Biologically, I think that can happen and often does, though not universally. So this is one way providentialism and AP can work well together.
I think AP works well for moms like me who need lots of interaction in order to develop the intuition you need to parent a baby. My two babies that came 20 months apart however developed a marvellously rich relationship -- none of my other 3 years apart children could ever get developmentally on the same page as these two did. Their father also stepped in to fill any nurturing gap. I think we grew considerably as a family through this.
I agree with Dr Popcak that it is a good thing that laymen and others are thrashing out what"the welfare of...those [children] already born” means. I have read that and reread it trying to discern what it means. I think it is general on purpose to leave openings for a wide range.
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Willa
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LisaR
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the only side notes I have to add to this conversation are:
1.Greg's personal experiences, and Danielle's for that matter, MUST weigh into the "debate" somehow. It is a personally charged issue so I am reading with that in mind.
2. The main issue that I have had in past conversations with "providentialists" (and I hate labels like this) is that I often get an "open to God's Will" equals having another baby.
Through Church teaching I know for certain that God gives us an intellect and a free Will, and that occasionally, the Will of God might be to abstain. It is a cross and these women and men need support just as much as the mom with many young children coming fairly close together need.
When a mom announces she is pregnant the response seems to often be"good for you for being open to God's will" but we cannot make that assumption any more than we can make the assumption that a mom who is abstaining chastely and in accordance with Church teaching is NOT somehow being open to God's will. (or following the will of God)
back to cleaning out the flooded basement,
and I realize my response might have been too "off track" so feel free to ignore. to be honest sometimes I don;t understand how people have the "TIME" to devote to this. Dh jokingly just said attachment parenting should NOT include the computer, LOL
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MarilynW
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I am a little lost on this whole debate. I have tried to find the original threads on what Dr. Popcak said and what Danielle said and I am confused. Can anyone please give me a nutshell explanation of what the debate is about - my brain is just not getting it. I though Popcak had a large family - is he not advocating large families?
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Lisbet
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Marilyn, a 'nutshell' would be difficult because so many tangents have been taken on the whole thing. I think Elizabeth has the closests 'nutshell' on her blog, but of course I am biased because we share the same view! :)
No, Dr. Popcak and his wife have 2 teen children, I think they were looking into adoption, but I don't know if anything has happened with that. Danielle, of course, has 8 children, so they come from completely different spectrums. Dr. Popcak is saying that AP can't work well unless children are spaced 2.5 years or more apart, and that AP is pretty much the only way for a Catholic family to parent. Danielle, says, take what works and leave the rest, do what God is asking of you, and throw out the guilt! :)
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Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
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Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
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Lisbet
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| Posted: Jan 11 2008 at 10:16am | IP Logged
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LisaR wrote:
2. The main issue that I have had in past conversations with "providentialists" (and I hate labels like this) is that I often get an "open to God's Will" equals having another baby.
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Lisa, Maybe this is because we (generally 'we' here) are more 'in your face' simply because we are trapsing our children and pregnant bellies around with us. The 'providentialist' couple that has further spaced or less children are not as outwarldly obvious about it. Those of us with big broods have to do alot more defending in general too, kwim?
I still don't understand the differences between all the 'providentialist' (small and big P) and all of the other terms used...
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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LisaR
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| Posted: Jan 11 2008 at 10:19am | IP Logged
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in a way, couldn't it all be boiled down to this: we all have a God given "purpose". My family listening to and obeying God's "plan" could very well be very different than the"plan" He wills for another family. Let us all support and encourage eachother so that we can each hear and obey and stay on track- our own track! and not get too caught up in someone elses.....?
Let us be a united front in the essentials and in all things charity!
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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lapazfarm
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LisaR wrote:
in a way, couldn't it all be boiled down to this: we all have a God given "purpose". My family listening to and obeying God's "plan" could very well be very different than the"plan" He wills for another family. Let us all support and encourage eachother so that we can each hear and obey and stay on track- our own track! and not get too caught up in someone elses.....?
Let us be a united front in the essentials and in all things charity!
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I think this is pretty much Danielle's point. But Popcack's view is that AP is objectively "best" for all Catholics, and that you cannot AP with closely spaced children. Therefore, he is advocating spacing children further apart as "best."
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Theresa
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Elizabeth
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Timeline of posts:
Danielle notes that a reader has taken exception to a review of Danielle's book on Popcak's website. If you go here you can see the link to review and exception. And then Danielle's explanation and 141 comments.
Then, you can read Danielle's email to Greg and Popcak's Response. I responded to that here and Danielle responded here.
Greg retorted here. Danielle's final thoughts are here. Mine are here.
I'm pretty sure Danielle is really finished and I know that I am 
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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LisaR
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wow, exhausting! I'm done too. happy and peaceful and prayerful parenting everyone!
(and spare a prayer for us if you could, I also hit a car the other day, and have been dealing with insurance all morning along with moldy basemnt  )
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
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Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
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PDyer
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Lisbet wrote:
| I just have to say though, I don't get why AP and not intentionally monitering fertility/spacing babies cannot work well together? |
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I'm going to be bold and I may be speaking out of turn, but I have to say, I have two kids, five years apart, and I don't get it either.
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Patty
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SusanJ
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I was only mildly annoyed with this exchange until last night when I read Dr. Popcak's final post on the topic. I think he is being horribly irresponsible in promoting this strict form of AP and standardized child spacing and throwing the authority of the magisterium and science behind it. Surely we should be charitable towards families of all sizes. There are many good reasons to space children and limit family size. There are also many examples out there of thriving families where the children come less than 2.5 years apart. For someone in a position of some authority to suggest this one-size-fits-all family plan is unconscionable. I tried to blog about all this last night but I was too upset. My husband let me vent to him for awhile (after he'd already fallen asleep, bless him!) and concluded that the best refutation for this sort of thing is the life we live. We are big AP advocates but I'm wondering if we should come up with another way to describe what we're doing because I really don't want to associate myself with the sort of mindset Dr. Popcak is advocating.
Thanks for letting me vent . . .
Can I just say a general thank-you to all of you for teaching me so much the last several months about openness to life and charity and generosity. My husband commented the other night how much my attitude has changed towards the timing of our next baby and my vocation in general. It's a lot of prayer and grace, of course, but also a lot of the influence of you lovely ladies in particular Elizabeth and Lisbet (Lisa).
Thank you!
Susan
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amyable
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It's funny - I started using AP type practices *because* I had many kids close(ish) together. Nursing is easier to me than bottles, cosleeping is easier than getting up 5 times a night, wearing the baby is the only way to get anything done... I hold and nurse my current baby practically all day long because it's the only way he'll sleep and when he sleeps I can actually teach something or read aloud  ... without what I see as the ease of this natural parenting, I think parenting would be even harder and I'd have wanted to space them more. Maybe I'm strange. 
Now I know Popcak said that AP isn't "practices" but a mindset, but I think the practices do go a long way to encourage good bonding and understanding of your children, whether or not your mind is totally set on "AP".
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JenniferS
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Interesting. I'm not good with the quotes thing, but Lisbet, I like what you said about Attachment Family. (All of my kids are very close,some in age, but all in an emotional--not sure if that is the word I want--way.) I would have to say that is what has evolved for us. I find it lovely. And I find AP makes my "large" family easier for me and dh(I hope that it's okay that I am speaking for him)to let God's Will be done for our family.
Jen
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Matilda
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LisaR wrote:
The main issue that I have had in past conversations with "providentialists" (and I hate labels like this) is that I often get an "open to God's Will" equals having another baby.
Through Church teaching I know for certain that God gives us an intellect and a free Will, and that occasionally, the Will of God might be to abstain. It is a cross and these women and men need support just as much as the mom with many young children coming fairly close together need.
When a mom announces she is pregnant the response seems to often be"good for you for being open to God's will" but we cannot make that assumption any more than we can make the assumption that a mom who is abstaining chastely and in accordance with Church teaching is NOT somehow being open to God's will.
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I have to agree with this. I have been guilty of taking offense to these same conversations and it has taken me a long time to realize that it was mostly my own sensitivity (which is not the same as a "guilty conscience" as some of people have accused me) to this discussion and not the attitude of most of the moms with the extra large family.
Why am I so sensitive? Because I desperately want to be Danielle Bean/Elizabeth Foss/insert name-of-amazing-mom-here. The desire of my heart would be to have a family that size...when I got married, that was the picture of perfection I had in my head. It is painful, heart-wrenchingly painful, on a daily basis to deal with the fact that God didn't make me that way (and I have very clear, concrete signs to prove it).
Anyway, the answer to all of this is charity. I had to realize, like Lisbet said, "Those (moms) with big broods have to do alot more defending in general too, kwim?" which means that we should be very charitable in understanding that their point of view is not an attack on us, maybe just a defense of their position in this world that is so opposed to it. I would ask for charity too on the part of these moms when dealing with people like me to acknowledge that we "wrap it up and send it to Him" in many different packages.
Danielle's philosophy "do what works best for your family" is the most charitable way to go and I have enjoyed her thoughts and Elizabeth's on this subject.
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Charlotte (Matilda)
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Popcak, AP and providentialism End on p.4
