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Kristie 4
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Ruth, thank you for starting this thread. I have a few years to go still, but I am wanting to begin to understand the issue.
I also think it is beautiful that he wrote to your husband to ask permission.... (almost chivalric in this day and age!).
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SallyT
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I'm glad to read this, too, as we've been navigating these waters a bit with our 14yo. She has friends who have gone on "dates" -- in large groups, not couple-only situations, though my own feeling is that 14 is way too young even for that.
There's obviously some difference of philosophy among the families in our high-school co-op, where this has come up. One 14yo boy "asked out" a girl in the group; they went on one group "date," and then the girl "broke up" with him. My daughter has asked me when she will be allowed to "date," and we haven't given a hard-and-fast answer, because she's our training teenager . . . I have told her that I think it's a good thing simply to be friends with people, and that to go someplace with a group of friends is fine. I need to find some courtship material for her to read -- she's the kind of kid who wants to read and process something privately, and then we can talk about it.
I am bothered by the "casualness" of dating. I hated it in my day -- I couldn't see the point in just going out with someone (even though I did "just go out" with a lot of someones in my early 20s . . . ). Blech. Not really what I want for my children, as life experiences go.
I love that the boy asked permission to date her! We have friends whose soon-to-be 18yo daughter has a boyfriend, with whom she was "just good friends" for several years. Finally he ,too, went to her father to ask his permission to ask her out. I keep pointing this out to my own daughter as something to look for . . .
Sally
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Erin
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Natalia wrote:
Erin,
How are the Catholic and Protestant view different?
Natalia
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Natalia
Apologies for being so tardy in replying but I have spent the time struggling to put the differences into words.
I guess I find the Catholic viewpoint to be an inspiring one, to talk/reflect upon the sacredness of God's gift to us. To hold before our children the ideal, to encourage them and reassure them that they can indeed live up to this ideal.
In the books that I had been reading previously there was a great deal of fear underlying the rigid rules. And they were indeed rigid, I felt there was little trust invested in our youth. Whilst indeed I know the temptation is strong and we need to be realistic about this we also can't be fear driven. I personally know of families who have encouraged their daughters to marry at 16 so that they do not 'sin', why do they not encourage them to practice self-denial and restraint? This is not a healthy basis for marriage.
To give an example of one of the 'rules' I mention- no kissing before marriage at all. On the surface it sounds intriguing but once I reflected more it just didn't seem right, it gives the impression that once a little 'leeway is given' that a couple can't manage self-restraint. As a cradle Catholic it was not the way in which I was raised. I was raised with a strong believe in self-denial, 'it was good for the soul'  and its true, it is.
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Macmom
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Erin-
But I wish I had ONLY kissed my husband. What was the benefit of all the other encounters? Why NOT save kissing for the man you marry?
I have a few friends (2 couples, almost 40-somethings) who DID save their kisses for the alter. (The couple in "Arms of Love" do so as well.) They are the role models I hold up to my kids. (BTW, my oldest, a 15.5 year old dd, just read Arms of Love and pronounced it her favorite book!)
Its not a matter of not wanting to start down the arousal path. Its more a matter of not sharing that intimacy with another man, except the one I'm bound to for life. What profit did I get from kissing other men? Did it make me a better lover of THIS man?
This is an intriguing topic. My husband and I are feeling this out. I like the courtship model boy asks dad's permission...time spent together for the purpose of discerning marriage (so obviously, you have to be in a position- spiritually and financially- to marry!)... couple is chaperoned or in a public place... parents give feedback. But how does it work if the child is miles away in college? I mean, we don't plan on letting the kids "court" in high school. But how does it work when mom and dad aren't around to play their roles in the young couple's relationship?
Peace,
Macmom
(PS I skipped all those lectures at Steubenville. Sometimes I wish I had stuck around and tuned in! I suspect these were the "Community's" ideas more than sound Catholic practice. Thank God the "Community" has been fairly neutralized!)
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seven2hold
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I really don't want to jump into the kiss or don't kiss debate. I just wanted to mention that in CM's book, Arms of Love, Brandon picks up Joni's hand and softly kisses her palm when they part.  How romantic is that?
My two cents.
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Medieval Mama
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I've just joined the forum, but I've read all of this thread (especially since Ruth's a dear friend of mine  ), because we've already made a few mistakes with our teenagers.
Two very different scenarios:
Our son had a crush on another very sweet homeschooled girl whose parents were acquaintances of our. One evening on the phone he and the girl professed their affections for eachother. My son told me about it and I immediately wished he had not told her about his feelings. Now she would tell her friends that they were "together" and he would no longer be just our son, he would be "(girl's name)'s boyfriend." Everything about her, her actions, her manner of dressing, etc. would reflect on him. I told him he was too young to be anyone's boyfriend so he cooperatively refused to call themselves "boyfriend" and "girlfriend," or say they were "dating," but the public perception was exactly that, no matter what he and his friend told everyone. The problem grew deeper when the young lady, I think having seen too many romantic comedies on t.v. and in the movies, became disgruntled at not having words to call themselves that distinguished her and him from the other boys and girls in their lives. It seems that teenagers today have great difficulty conceiving of a friendship between a boy and a girl who have real feelings for eachother as anything other than an exclusive "dating" relationship. She was jealous when another girl "flirted" with my son. He was jealous when another boy danced with her. Some boys wanted to dance with her, but were afraid of stepping on toes. Some of the other girls deliberately used my son to make his young lady friend jealous because they just didn't like her. It was ridiculous and way too much like the public high school garbage I remembered. However, at the point at which it all started to unravel, it was too late for my husband and I to "make" him break it off. I was glad when she stopped talking to him, altogether, though my heart hurt for his broken heart.
My daughter, on the other hand, was older and the boy asked my husband if he could "court" her. Well, she wasn't old enough to get married, so we took him to mean chaste "dating", and, knowing his family, we consented to their going to dinner, or a movie with parental chaperones, or visiting with eachother in a quiet but public room in one of our homes. After two months they had a serious conversation about issues relating to marriage (homeschooling, homebirth, vaccines, the Traditional Mass, CYO, etc.) and within the week he "broke up" with her. She was very heart broken and I was so angry with myself for letting this happen to her. I should have known that, in both their cases, all parties involved were way to immature to handle a relationship of that nature. Which brings me to my first point:
Age (a number) doesn't necessarily correspond to a certain level of maturity. We actually haven't ever told our kids that they can "date" at a certain age. We've told them that when they're able to marry they can court. This was after we realized our mistake, which had nothing really to do with their purity. Their relationships were chaste, of course! There were no opportunities for them to be otherwise, although a parent can't really know when a child sins in his/her heart (modesty is soooooo important!).
What I came to realize is that even though Catholics no longer "arrange" marriages, each one of my children is betrothed, either to Christ or the Church, or to a particular person that God has created for each one of them. We don't know who that person is, but God does. None of us knows who that person is until our child stands with him/her before God and vows to love, honor and cherish/obey him/her until death. That's my second point.
My third point is that now that I know who that person is for me, I could never conieve of holding hands, kissing, being all alone, etc. with any other man. It would be unfaithful, just as it would have been unfaithful for me to show my affection before marriage to a man to whom I was not betrothed, and I couldn't know for sure WHO that man was until I was married to him. (I'm sure everyone can think of at least one example of an engagement that broke off for one reason or another right before the wedding--I can think of 4 right off the top of my head.)
There's no time with God. So if we look at our life through His eyes we can see how, when we stand before Him, with our betrothed on our wedding day, it seems very important to be able to say, "I have been faithful to you my entire life."
It seems good that this idea should govern the activities we might choose to engage in before we are married, and the attitude with which we should approach a relationship, and help our children to approach a relationship.
It doesn't have to be about fear. It doesn't have to be about trust, although we should certaily fear sin, and we should certainly not trust ourselves in situations in which human beings are notoriously weak. Just like I wouldn't trust myself to walk a tight rope 50 feet in the air with no safety net! But the nature of the beast is such that when we talk to our teens about fearing their falling into sin that automatically translates into, "I don't trust you," which tempts their foolish pride, and we all know that pride combined with lust is deadly. Rather, as with everything, it seems more effective uphold the model of happiness, a faithful, fruitful marriage and simply show them the way to attain that happiness, which is being faithful to your spouse your entire life, even before you know who he/she is, showing them how to see their lives through God's eyes, teaching them to respect His choice of spouse for each of them, and then impressing upon them the importance of being faithful to their future spouse ALL THEIR LIVES.
Practically speaking what I think all this means is this:
First, it's good to teach children from a young age to pray to discern their vocation and to pray for their future spouse if that be someone other than Christ or the Church. This will remind them daily to remain faithful to that spouse, whoever he/she is.
Second, since a very long courtship can become a near occasion of sin, until they are able to marry it doesn't seem fair for them to seriously consider any one person to be that future spouse, therefore, any action that could imply exclusivity in a relationship is inappropraite. (This is the regrettable mistake we allowed our children to make.)
Third, once a serious, PROSPECTIVE spouse has come forward, and I DO think parental permission/approval is very important, any activities that could constitute unfaithfulness to THE future spouse (kissing, snuggling, in short, whatever you wouldn't do with anyone who wasn't your spouse) are inappropriate. Spending time alone together is necessary for two people to get to know eachother well. This, however, is like walking the tightrope. As long as the safety net of the family is in close proximity, there is no inpropriety, or danger. Otherwise it's just plain imprudent.
I have more thoughts on this subject, but I've run out of time. I'm sure someone else on this forum can express them better than I, anyway. I'm sorry I was so long winded, as it is, especially for a first-timer. I guess this subject just really struck home with me.
On a lighter note, Ruth has been telling me such wonderful things about all of you and I'm really looking forward to getting to know everyone!
God bless,
Robynn
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Macmom
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Robynn-
You express yourself PERFECTLY! And the added convictions of your own experiences serve to strengthen your observations.
Thanks! (and welcome!)
Peace,
Macmom
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JodieLyn
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Robynn though not Catholic I think that's a point that Jodh Harris makes in I Kissed Dating Goodbye.. that we're not free to give affection (of that type) to any but our spouse.
It's society's idea that we have to remain faithful to a spouse but if you haven't promised someone then you're free to do whatever.. when in the Bible we're to be chaste in all stages of life, and if that happens to include marriage we can give those affections to our spouse.
Macmom.. I also think he talks about the away at college problem.. and how the young man can still communicate with the father long distance and a trusted couple (as in married) or even several can fill in for the chaporoning parts. (perhaps finding someone through the local church).
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ALmom
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Well thank you all - for starting this thread and for the inputs. Our oldest is now 20 and we have been forging this path for a while now. It has been a beautiful learning together as we go. I must say that I really, really enjoyed reading the critique of the courtship article and also gave it to my dd to read. We have also read many of the Protestant resources and In the Arms of Love. My brother married a Phillipino-American whose parents required them to always have a chaperone and I heard her reactions to it (at the time she was over 30, had a 2 year old - her first husband died when she was pregnant and they always had the 2 year old with them). I personally thought it was kind of neat and having little girls that my mother instinct wanted to be mama bear and protect, it was especially attractive. It wasn't quite so wonderful to her. But I did find it eye-opening that my brother wasn't the least bit bothered by it one way or another, they just picked the brother that he was close friends with to be the chaperone. I guess it has helped us realize that even if we forge a path that is different, men of character will respect both the parents wishes and the boundaries set by the girl. I must say I have found much of value in all of this but nothing that we have followed 100%.
We spoke with our children from very, very early on - long before dating was even on the radar scope. They grew up with a certain sense that dating as the world does it was not a possibility in our home - much like seatbelts are non-negotiable. (Later we did have to explain company keeping and some of our other terms, and we probably should have had a talk as the teens approach about the difference in friendships between girls and friendships between boys and girls - especially about the reserve that is prudent). We never put an age or clearly defined courtship or anything like that - just that it is one thing to be in mixed groups where girls learn how boys think and boys learn how girls think - BUT until you are within a year or so of marrying, it doesn't make sense to company keep.
In reflecting on the dating scene - it is all about using other people for your own enjoyment. This is so contrary to the Christian walk. It is not right to see who will give you the best time, take you to the neatest places, etc. We spoke in terms of the best foundation for a good relationship with your spouse is a good friendship. That doesn't mean you are paranoid - but you certainly can be friends with plenty of people and it is from those that God is most likely to lead you to a spouse when the time is right. In the meantime you do need to learn not to give mixed messages, etc. It is important for them to be guided in some of the early encounters with young men. A girl is naturally chatty and she has to know that at some point her friendships with girls are different than her friendships with boys. There has to be a certain reserve. A girl is silly and chatty with her girlfriends, pops in frequently to say Hi or see how things are coming along - BUT to just do that with a young man is going to seem like flirting - and since our young ladies are attractive, kind and considerate and a lot of fun - gee, no surprise if the guys start falling for them and emotions can begin to have more front and center than is good. Any girl loves to be complimented, given little attentions, etc. It is easy to be mislead by the differences in males and females - or, a very real danger in this time - mislead by a sweet talking, debanair who wants to take advantage of innocence. This path easily leads to unintended broken hearts and - a ruined friendship.
From a teenage girls point of view it is hard for her to distinguish between loving the attention and loving the person. It also takes many, many reminders that her actions are giving the wrong message, or that her genuine listening and kindness is being misinterpreted. She often fails to recognize that she is becoming the center of someones heart. She is also easily emotionally manipulated - even unintentionally. In high school (homeschool or otherwise), unfortunately, our society has made it really, really difficult for folks to simply be friends. Having her ask dad rule in college has really helped make the distinction clearer to the guy.
The girl must always remember that another person's heart may be in her hands and if she leads a guy on - and the emotional sharing means something entirely different to a guy than to a girl - she could leave him crushed and ruin a perfectly good friendship. Any guy worth dating/courting, is one you would love to be good friends with.
It helps that we had the no dating rule until you are within a year of marriage - because it means mom and dad maintain a healthy guidance of early boy-girl friendships. Maintaining a close communications with your teenage children is essentail - because they are not going to enter the teen years just knowing that spending lots of one on one time with a guy is any different than spending one on one time with your best girlfriend - but it is leagues different and it is up to mom and dad to guide this process of discovering how you can be friends with a guy without leading him on.
We have stepped in early - communicating concerns to daughter and even parent of other child. I'm not saying we didn't make mistakes but really it has been an inspiring facet of things. Now, in college, she consults us, keeps us in the loop, etc. but she is making her own decisions here - not following some arbitrary set of rules. She consults us as well as a male cousin.
I'm not sure what you would call this process - but it is more serious, like courship (our children jokingly refer to it as dorting), and she made her own decision to save her first kiss for her wedding day. She has asked about feelings and how that all plays into it and we have discussed that if it is meant to be, those will certainly come naturally and you don't have to force them or be paranoid about trying to prevent them, you just make sure that you do follow prudent guidelines about avoiding the near occassion of sin (basic Catholic teaching) - that is something that I found refreshing about the critique. It wasn't all about fear or an analytical checklist.
I have also found that our role of parent is very different with a 20 year old than with a 16 year old. She is very much an adult and it would be bizzare for us to be dictating who she dates, who she doesn't and what all her rules are. We have given her plenty of guidance and continue to mentor her. Our advice has always been to begin with friendship and not be too quick to bare your whole soul - but don't mislead or be deceptive. She asked her senior year in high school about dating in college, and our response was very reality based - the prinicpals based on the truths still lead us to believe that dating prior to being within a year or so of marriage is inadvisable, that friendships are the best starting point, that prudence dictates caution about where and that seeing each other in the context of family is a better way to really get to know one another (instead of dating where both are trying to impress the other). However, she is going to be living on her own, away from home, etc. and while our advice is still the same, it really is her call now as even if we wanted to, we couldn't control how she handled this area - it would be pretty darn easy to hide stuff from us. Besides, there does come a point where parent does let her fledgling fly. She is 18, she is moving into adult life when decisions are more hers to make. We hope she would continue to value the benefits of our experience by continuing to consult us, etc. She has continued to ask for our input - and has always had very wise and probing questions.  Can you tell, mama is proud of her baby .
Our approach has tried to forge a path that keeps many things in mind:
Essential need of prayer and the Sacraments for purity, proper discernment in all relationships, etc. Prudence is a virtue as well and should be prayed for frequently as well as for your vocation/future spouse.
the requirement of charity to respect the other person and seek what is best for them as well as yourself. People are made in the image and likeness of God and are not to be used.
the reality of the difference between men and women and how they respond or interpret different things.
the reality of the ugliness and danger out there. Date r* is a very real threat to young women - so certain aspects of courtship are not about not trusting yourself, your daughter or anything else, but the realization that it is easy to be duped and better to be in public places with trusted people, etc.
friendship is the very best foundation for lifelong marriage. My spouse should be my best friend. Also real character flaws don't show up on dates - they show up when you are hanging out as friends. It is not that you are looking for the perfect spouse, we all have our flaws - but gee, you should see these before committing to lifelong marriage. (Girls are particularly vulnerable to emotional manipulation and such ).
You don't want to operate in fear, but you do want to make prudent decisions about something so important for eternity.
she does insist on anyone wanting to go out with her to ask her dad - they do it by phone or we meet them when we visit. Her early concerns were several:
You don't want to call it courtship cause you don't want to scare folks off. The guy shouldn't have to feel like he is obligated to marry you from the first time you meet and most folks are very unfamiliar with the courtship model to begin with. Any young man of character will respect both the parents rules and the girls boundaries, so requiring someone to ask dad serves many purposes (she explains it in terms of being very close to her family and wanting us involved) - it makes it clear that she is not interested in recreational dating/ typical dating scene, it highlights the reality of family life being important, and it does provide some extra caution involving physical safety. Our daughter loves to be a part of our family life and whomever she might marry must be able and willing to be a part of our crazy family, and she his, and she wants her friends to meet us - she doesn't have to spend every waking minute with us, nor does the person have to get inundated with all of us at once the first week they begin seeing each other. My dh and I do travel for frequent visits - or to hear concerts, etc., so we do always manage to at least meet the individual in person early on.
She also wants to see the other person in a more natural setting where true character comes out - ie she will meet someone at the school cafeteria with a girlfriend when folks seem to be hinting for a date. She has done a lot of consulting with her male cousin to discern the male perspective and get his advice on how to handle things. (She talks to us too but wanted a younger persons input as well).
She will ask about the character of a person from friends who may know the person to get some heads up. She is very cautious and though there is no hard and fast rule about not going to a restaurant with someone, etc., she is also very, very cautious and must have already built a pretty darn good friendship first or it be in a group of folks. She does generally try to have some friends around or going along, but again, this is not a hard and fast rule, and sometimes none of her friends are available. She uses good judgement at the time. These are plain prudent guidelines for young women - not about fear of passion taking over. Being in each others dorm rooms is just plain crazy. She is not opposed to going to a group gathering at someone's apartment (when she knows what the event will be like, not for wild college parties) but always is with a number of her trusted friends, but it is plain lacking in prudence to be there alone.
She has seen first hand the great joy in proceeding first with friendship. She has met young men of fine character - and they have remained treasured friends. They went out together enough to know that while they admire and respect one another, they are not meant to be lifelong marriage partners, though they share many interests. These are people who will always be respected and admired by us, her parents, as well - and they will always be welcome in our home. It is not an easy thing for a young man to call a young women's dad and speak to him for the first time - in order to go out with your daughter, especially when this is not something they are even familiar with.
We also remind our daughter that she must be open to the promptings of God. I can share forthrightly, the very real difficulties of marriages where faith is not shared (my dh is now Catholic but was not Christian when we married). Still, you don't make a requirements list and go out looking for a spouse like you shop for a dress - that too is looking at someone as an object and not a person. Neither can you ignore the extra challenges of these things or put your head in the sand and just ignore it because "you love one another". Differences need to be faced head on and worked through long before marriage.
So, I guess while there was a lot I agreed with in the Critique, I do think that the courtship model is a really good starting point for forging a path to healthy "company keeping." I do see how it is taken to extreme in Protestant circles - and I also witnessed how the girls would arrange "group functions" to satisfy mom and pop, when, in reality, it was nothing more than an opportunity to get away with dating. I will say, the Protestant material on courtship was the only thing around for so long to help bring out in the open the unhealthy dating scene. One thing I appreciate about the whole courtship things is that it takes tremendous pressure off of girls (and maybe boys, I don't know cause we haven't gotten there with boys yet). I was a more serious type so I never got asked out in high school and not even in college, and thought there was something wrong with me. It was crushing to spend your 16th birthday alone while everyone else you knew went to the prom. I can look back now and say, God was good, he spared me a lot of silliness - BUT it really hurt my confidence too. Being upfront with ours from the start just saves them all that crazy anguish. My dh shared with me that he wasn't even looking till he got out of college - now he wasn't reading courtship books, I guarantee, but somehow God had written the truth on his heart and he was enough of a man of integrity that he wasn't about to ask girls out in college when he wasn't ready - it is not about seeing who will give you the best time. There is plenty of truth in these courtship books.
Janet
Janet
Janet
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Ruth
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Thank you all, for your imput. I have learned so much from reading this. I keep going back and reading it over again. It takes me a looooong time to process things, so I'm still praying to the Holy Spirit to guide us.
A. started reading Arms of Love last night, and so far she likes it. This morning she asked me to read a section in it, and it sounded a lot like what a lot of you said. I would reccomend this book, if you can get it.
This is a great discussion. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'm really enjoying reading about your experiences.
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Ruth
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SuzanneG
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Steve Woods has some things on Catholic Courtship.
I've read the ABC books....and they are good, but don't address the "logistics" and "specifics" of courting, etc.
Anyone else read/listened to any of the others that address courtship specifically?
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Erin
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Macmom wrote:
Erin-
But I wish I had ONLY kissed my husband. What was the benefit of all the other encounters? Why NOT save kissing for the man you marry?
I have a few friends (2 couples, almost 40-somethings) who DID save their kisses for the alter. |
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Macmom
One thing that made me really uncomfortable about some material I read was that the couple's FIRST kiss was at the altar, a PUBLIC affair really, and comments were made, I thought, that were unsuitable about a private matter.
I do agree with you of the beauty of saving kissing for the man you marry. In fact that has been my own personal experience but I wouldn't have liked to think our first kiss was to be witnessed publicly. (Mind you we didn't kiss in the church as the priest forgot )
Seven2hold wrote:
I really don't want to jump into the kiss or don't kiss debate. |
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Kathy
My apologies, I wasn't clear enough in my post, I wasn't meaning a 'to do or not to do' situation, I agree with you it is a lovely romantic concept and I believe a very individual personal one. I was referring to the 'fear' motivation that I read in many books that was the reasoning behind the decision, and not just the kissing choice that was just an example. I would like to inspire my children from a beauty/inspirational mode. That is what I'm inadequately trying to express.
In fact Robyn expresses it far more eloquently than I.
Medieval Mama wrote:
| It doesn't have to be about fear. It doesn't have to be about trust, although we should certaily fear sin, and we should certainly not trust ourselves in situations in which human beings are notoriously weak. Just like I wouldn't trust myself to walk a tight rope 50 feet in the air with no safety net! But the nature of the beast is such that when we talk to our teens about fearing their falling into sin that automatically translates into, "I don't trust you," which tempts their foolish pride, and we all know that pride combined with lust is deadly. Rather, as with everything, it seems more effective uphold the model of happiness, a faithful, fruitful marriage and simply show them the way to attain that happiness, which is being faithful to your spouse your entire life, even before you know who he/she is, showing them how to see their lives through God's eyes, teaching them to respect His choice of spouse for each of them, and then impressing upon them the importance of being faithful to their future spouse ALL THEIR LIVES. |
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So beautiful
Robyn
Thank you for joining us and welcome 
Your list of practicalities are wonderful. They are pretty much what dh and I followed through our courtship, from the age of 13 I prayed 3 Hail Mary's for my purity and the purity of my future spouse. I can assure you that the graces from those prayers were apparent during our courtship.
I didn't date at all, really I wasn't wasting my time on anyone 'unworthy' 
When I met my future spouse at age 19, I had other things on my mind, I was going to travel, however dh, who was 23, knew otherwise. I was still living at home and my mother started encouraging me to start a Catholic youth group and insisted that I invite dh. I wasn't too sure that he would be interested, he was! Unbeknown to me he had been going to all these country dances thinking I would be there and I wasn't Poor man.
So obviously we had my parents blessing, we started out as friends, lots of talking, lots of people around and lots of little siblings for chaperons.
Our courtship was probably about six months, I'm really not too sure when our outings became dates and not just friends chatting, he was very sneaky about not scaring me. Our engagement was also six months. So I was two months shy of 21 and dh 25.
But what about the more trickier situations? Take my sister, she lives away from home, has done since 17, is now 27 and her fiancee is 44. They are having an engagement period of six months, they are too old for parental input in the manner we are talking, aren't they?
Janet
So much food for thought, wow, I'm going to come back and re-read later. You make some very good points about explaining to our dc the differences in how the other gender would read a situation, I've been married 15yrs now and can still be surprised by the differences, what was God thinking?
I'm am fascinated to read about your brother's courtship, I would have thought because she was a widow she would have had more freedom, (they do in all the history novels )
I just love what you are doing with your daughter, thank you for the practical help. I know I'll be pouring over this. You have every right to be the proud mama.
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Erin
Faith Filled Days
Seven Little Australians
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guitarnan
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| Posted: Dec 19 2007 at 6:28pm | IP Logged
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This thread has gone from good to great...thanks, everyone!
Janet makes one point I would like to bring out, because I am already discussing it with my (non-dating) 15-year-old son. He's a very committed Catholic, and so I've started pointing out to him the things he might need to expect if he were to marry someone from another faith background. Dh became Catholic when we were engaged, and so I never had to confront the idea of a non-Catholic husband. I've seen many friends in this situation, though - some handle it beautifully, and others don't - and it's worth pointing out to teens that this issue is far more serious than they might think. Being in love doesn't smooth over issues about holidays, children, education, etc., and it definitely doesn't make them go away.
Similarly, we are a military family and many of our friends have married wonderful, committed men and women from other countries. I think this is great, but I have noticed that most of my ex-pat friends need to visit their home turf practically every year, or have family come to them. This can also strain a marriage (especially when finances are tight), so I have mentioned to ds once or twice that he should expect, should he marry a young lady from another country, that she would want to go back to visit family and friends at least once a year, and that he should be willing to budget for that. (I have lived overseas three times...sometimes you really do get desperate for home, and a loving spouse should understand that.)
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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Medieval Mama
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Given the time of year, I have been delayed in posting one last thought, but I realized yesterday that there’s an element here that Janet touched upon when she mentioned "company keeping" but that I don’t think has been discussed directly, and that is Propriety as it relates to protecting the lady’s and gentleman’s reputation. One only needs to read one Jane Austen novel to see how much a sense of propriety has been lost in our modern culture  . But many of those things that caused such scandal during the Victorian era, did so for good reason. Today some of us may not really see what the big deal is with a lady and gentleman being seen out alone together, even if they have no romantic feelings for each other, whatsoever. But imagine she’s seen out alone with one gentleman one weekend, then another the next weekend, or next month, and yet another not long after that  . The public perception could quickly become something no lady would like to be thought of. What good gentleman would dare entrust his feelings to a girl who has a different beau on her arm every week, and vice versa? And that is only the least of their concerns. There are so many much more wicked things people could think. Again, it’s an easy question. Is this something you would only do with your spouse? There would have to be a very good reason for me to go out in public, for example, the mall or a restaurant, with a man other than my husband (or father, brother, or son). I was out with my husband once, with several other couples, at a restaurant that had a bar, and I saw a man from our church in the bar with a group, including women, without his wife. I must say it LOOKED very bad, even though, by all appearances at church, he has a very happy marriage with what promises to be a large and lively family. One’s reputation can SO easily be harmed when any propriety is lacking.
These days young people are accustomed to seeing boys and girls spending the night together, even at Church functions (lock-ins, retreats, CYO camp outs, etc.), but not too long ago it was considered extremely improper for people of the opposite sex to sleep in close proximity. There is too much opportunity for scandal, and innocent people’s reputations can be gravely damaged. However, because it has become so common place, many of us may not think twice about two people “company keeping” outside a reasonable timetable to marriage. Here is where the issue of trusting your child is irrelevant. Like I tell my husband when I display nervousness when he’s driving us somewhere, “It’s not you I’m concerned about, but the other maniacs out here!” I guess one could call propriety in this case a sort of defensive driving on the road of life. Because there are so many people in this world who might even be eager to malign another person, we must be especially careful in guarding ours and our children’s reputations.
The priest who married us used to tell a story in one of his sermons that I’ve remembered since I was a child. He told of a girl who came home from school one day and was told by her mother to go up to her room and take the feather pillow from her bed, cut it open and pour all the feathers out the window. The girl complied and then came back down stairs with the empty pillow case and asked her mother what she should do with it. Her mother told her that she should go out into the neighborhood and collect ALL of the feathers she had just poured from her window, taking great care not to miss a single feather. The girl replied in horror that this was an impossible task. Her mother answered that it was just as impossible for her to erase the harm done to another’s reputation by the uncharitable gossip in which she had engaged at school. This is a severe admonishment against gossip, but it should be just as serious a warning about guarding our reputations.
I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion and have a much more clear idea of the mistakes we made and the additional ones to avoid in the future. Thanks, Ruth, for bringing it up! And thank you, wise women of the forum, for sharing your insights  .
Robynn
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: What is dating?
