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Elizabeth
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Mary G. wrote:
Elizabeth:
I don't know if this will help -- why don't you invite Father to your house? If he sees how a prayer corner, statues, icons and holy pictures, and any other "trappings of our Faith" help to make your house a home, maybe he'll understand he needs to bring them back into the Church? I know this worked for my brother when he was in a similar situation.
Didn't then-Cardinal Ratzinger discuss this in his book Spirit of the Liturgy -- or one of his other writings on Mass? Maybe that too would help.
Praying for you -- |
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Because, after repeated invitations to dinner, lunch and post-sacrament parties, which he declined, he finally said, "If I have time to socialize, I will do it with my friends and family."
Another suggestion?
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Elizabeth
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I found this letteron reverence which was written by Bishop Keating, who must have ordained our pastor...
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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jdostalik
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Elizabeth wrote:
Because, after repeated invitations to dinner, lunch and post-sacrament parties, which he declined, he finally said, "If I have time to socialize, I will do it with my friends and family."
Another suggestion? |
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Oh my goodness!   Talk about mortifications and a good opportunity to grow in holiness!!! 
I'm at a loss! I just found this thread and it has been helping me to feel better about blooming where I'm planted, but gee Elizabeth, I might really consider being "re-potted" if I were you! 
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Jennifer in TX
wife to Bill, mom to six here on earth and eight in heaven.
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Angie Mc
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I knew you all would be generous and charitable when dealing with this sensitive topic. Thank you. I've only had the time to glance over your posts and am eager to spend more time with your references over the next several days.
I have personal opinions about this topic which I will share later. For now, I'm currently focusing on procedures. I've been thinking about organizational structure, chain of command, grievance procedures, whistle-blowing, etc. From my pre-mommy days, I'm well versed in these areas within business and public organizations. I'd like to be more knowledegable about what is expected of the individual within our Church, from the Church's perspective.
In the business and public sectors, every organization has some sort of policy and procedure about how to...complain. This is separate from helping someone discern whether or not there is something worth complaining about. This is also separate from whether an individual should choose to complain or not.
For example, according to Church procedure, is it ever appropriate to "jump the chain of command" with a complaint? Is it ever appropriate to complain anonymously? If it is, under what conditions?
I'm out of time for now! Have a beautiful day.
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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MaryM
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Elizabeth wrote:
| If we can't change such a parish, shouldn't we move so our children are able to grow up in a parish with tradition? or Tradition? |
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I was thinking of this specific post when I responded...so getting back to what do you do when a different parish is not an option (ie Angie's situation).
Jimmy Akins' recommendations as outlined in the book I mentioned earlier are:
1. Pray for guidance and a spirit of humility and love.
2. Determine whether liturgical abuse is actually occurring.
3. Determine whether to take action concerning the abuse.
4. Approach the person committing the abuse.
5. Appeal to higher authority (first pastor then head of local deanery then bishop's office).
OR
6. Investigate a mediation or conciliation process.
7. Determine whether formal procedures are needed (This gets into the canon law issues and one would do well to be connected with the St. Joseph Foundation at this point to the detailing of those procedures).
As I mentioned this subject came back to me while I was reading Swimming With Scapulars. Matthew Lickona tells a story (page 184 for those who have it) of his father sending the priest a letter about something he was saying at baptisms (and funerals) that was theologically incorrect. The letter started with a compliment about something that the priest was generally saying then mentioned that in light of that he (Likona's father) was surprised that father was making the statement he had been at baptisms (& funerals). The letter sounded very charitable and non-attacking. It said the priest never directly responded but did cease making this type of incorrect statement. I thought that was a really useful approach (compliment, assume right intention – then address situation) and could see how it would possibly yield results with many priests. The getting more flies with honey than vinegar theory.
That being said, there are priests who very consciously and deliberately are making the choice to say or do something at Mass because of what they believe theologically or liturgically. Writing to them, talking to them may or may not make a difference or influence them in change.
Is there a liturgy director at the parish? How involved is the rest of the parish staff in these changes. The more entrenched the philosophy surrounding this, the less likely your efforts to be listened to on the parish level will be. If it is only the priest and he doesn't generally have an agenda (I hate to use that word but not sure what better fits) a sharing with humility and respect could open dialogue that might lead to change.
If one decides to take it further to the deanery or bishops office there may or may not be results. Unfortunately as Jimmy Akin points out it is not as easy as people think for bishops to correct their priests. (As an aside in the diocese were my parents are, a couple of priests would use the substantial priest shortage they were having as leverage over the bishop’s head. This particular bishop was not willing to address priests on these matters as they would just threaten to leave the diocese).
It also matters what kind of a diocese you are in. Often it is not the individual parish, but the diocese that is encouraging and implementing liturgical irregularities. In one of the other dioceses in our Archdiocese, parishioners would not receive any support at the diocesan level for addressing liturgical abuse and you couldn't go to another parish anyway as the likelihood of finding the same thing would be pretty high. For example in this diocese, the bishop had mandated that standing be the norm for the Eucharistic prayers, including consecration, and again after communion. The new GIRM more clearly addresses this:
“In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.” (no. 43) The last time I attended a parish there, they still were standing after the Sanctus. As you can see in this particular example, the US Bishops have the prerogative to determine standing be the norm after the Agnes Dei but not between the Sanctus and Great Amen.
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Mary M. in Denver
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MacBeth
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Just thinking aloud here...I feel that it is easier to mention a few things in a mostly orthodox parish than to bring a long litany of complaints one might come across in some "modern" parishes. And there are also things that are not abuses, but just don't feel right, as Elizabeth pointed out, like no stained glass, no incense, no bells, and the curious (and seemingly random) placement of the tabernacle.
In a local church (the one that would be our parish, but since there is a Polish ethnic church, the Ordinary gives permission for parishioners to come from other geographical parishes and join the Polish parish...even if they are not Polish), the tabernacle, which looks as though it were designed by Mike Brady to Carol Brady's specifications is somewhere off at the side of the church. There is a new priest there who is very orthodox, so I am betting that folks will feel free to come forward and ask that the tabernacle be moved. As far as I know, that's not an abuse per se, but it is one of those little things that changes the focus (in the literal sense of "place") of the Mass. To change something that is not an actual abuse, but merely pushes the limits of modern worship, is trickier than blatant abuse. That means we must know the difference. 
Changing what the people do is another matter, as well. In several parishes around here, folks have been told that there is no need to kneel at all during Mass, that the Eucharist will no longer be offered to those who prefer to receive on the tongue, etc. Some pastors have even stated that it is against the rules to place the Host on the tongue. Now things get messy. Since this does not affect those who receive in the hand (who may be the majority of the congregation), one may have a hard time making a case ("Well, we want the congregation to all do the same thing...do you think you are more holy than the rest of us?") Messy, indeed.
Continuing my thinking aloud with a few questions:
What are good resources for learning what is a real abuse, and what is just a different custom?
Is it right to try and change something that is not a real abuse, but just seems wrong?
How far do we go to try and change real abuses before we shake the dust off our sandals?
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MacBeth in NY
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MaryM
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Please note that this link for the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) is the most updated document. It is for the 2003 version. The previous link that was mentioned is to the 1975 document.
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Mary M. in Denver
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MacBeth
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Yup. MacBeth's in a time warp! Sorry about that!
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MacBeth in NY
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MaryM
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MacBeth wrote:
| ...the tabernacle, which looks as though it were designed by Mike Brady to Carol Brady's specifications is somewhere off at the side of the church... As far as I know, that's not an abuse per se, but it is one of those little things that changes the focus (in the literal sense of "place") of the Mass. |
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Actually tabernacle placement could fall under the realm of liturgical abuse. There are norms for the location and the 2003 GIRM makes that more clear than in the 1975 document.
The Place for the Reservation of the Most Holy Eucharist
314. In accordance with the structure of each church and legitimate local customs, the Most Blessed Sacrament should be reserved in a tabernacle in a part of the church that is truly noble, prominent, readily visible, beautifully decorated, and suitable for prayer.125
The one tabernacle should be immovable, be made of solid and inviolable material that is not transparent, and be locked in such a way that the danger of profanation is prevented to the greatest extent possible.126 Moreover, it is appropriate that, before it is put into liturgical use, it be blessed according to the rite described in the Roman Ritual.127
315. It is more in keeping with the meaning of the sign that the tabernacle in which the Most Holy Eucharist is reserved not be on an altar on which Mass is celebrated.128
Consequently, it is preferable that the tabernacle be located, according to the judgment of the Diocesan Bishop,
a. Either in the sanctuary, apart from the altar of celebration, in a form and place more appropriate, not excluding on an old altar no longer used for celebration (cf. above, no.303);
b. Or even in some chapel suitable for the faithful’s private adoration and prayer129 and which is organically connected to the church and readily visible to the Christian faithful.
This indicating that the preference being the sanctuary. The movement of the tabernacle out of the sanctuary (as well as much liturgical experimentation and church renovation)over the last 30 years has been fueled by liturgists, using the document Environment and Art in Catholic Workshop (1978), who said that it was Church law and approved by the US bishops. This publication was the recommendation of a single US bishops' committee. I like how Jimmy Akin explains it: "EACW is the publication of a single committee and is not law anymore that a bill that had only been passed by a lone committee in the US Congress would be a US law." (Mass Confusion, page 31)
This is from Cardinal Arinze:
The directives from Rome -- including the new Missal issued two years ago -- say that the tabernacle in which the Blessed Sacrament is reserved is to be located in a very prominent place either at the center or at such a side altar that it is really prominent and that around it there are kneelers and chairs so that people can pray -- kneel down or sit down. And it is to be so prominent that nobody should need to look for it when you enter the church.
Therefore, whenever you enter a church and you look for the tabernacle where the Blessed Sacrament is reserved and you do not easily see it, then those who arrange it are already wrong. Because it should be prominent -- it should stand out -- to show our faith.
However, it is not a law that it must be at the center. But it is a law that where it is should be prominent. And that it should be easy for people to see it and to go there and pray. But unfortunately in some churches, sometimes those who did it did not know. But they did not know that they did not know.
So you enter the church and you ask where is the tabernacle? "They have taken the Lord away and we do not know where they have put Him". That's what Mary Magdalene said on Easter day.
Christifidelis article on the topic.
Seems like you have a pretty good case as your tabernacle doesn't sound like it meets this criteria "the Most Blessed Sacrament should be reserved in a tabernacle in a part of the church that is truly noble, prominent, readily visible, beautifully decorated, and suitable for prayer." And I take it something designed by Mike Brady wouldn't meet the "beautifully decorated" part.
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MaryM
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MacBeth wrote:
What are good resources for learning what is a real abuse, and what is just a different custom? |
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I'm realizing that while Adoremus and St Joseph's have the answers to these their sites are not as user friendly as I remembered - I thought they had a collection of question and answers readily available. Those Q & A are in the newsletters they publish which makes it harder to have together in a "collection" for easy access. (Adoreum seem to be only in the hard copies which is what I have and refer to)
So for basics of what is and is not liturgical abuse the most helpful resources I have found would be:
Catholic Answers Special Report - especially see easy reference list at bottom.
Mass Confusion - Jimmy Akin (mentioned previously)
Liturgical Question Box - Msgr. Peter Elliott
Ugly as Sin- Michael Rose
Renovation Manipulation - Michael Rose
This one is primarily a resource for clergy but I find it very informative. Just wish it was updated with references to the new GIRM. Hopefully that is in the works. Ceremonies of the the Modern Roman Rite - Msgr. Peter Elliott
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Mary M. in Denver
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JennGM
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Okay...I'm going on a little tangent. I'm recommending some saints to invoke while you struggle with the research and the decision. So while you are reading up on the research, some spiritual reading:
Books by Father Joseph Dirvin on Mother Seton: both Mrs. Seton and his new one Soul of Mother Seton. Both are available at the Seton Shrine Gift Shop.
I'm remembering her spiritual struggle on converting from Anglicanism to Catholicism. These books have excerpts from her journals that really show her spiritual angst in this decision. She was leaving family and friends, everyone had turned from her...it was a real night of the soul. I know changing a parish isn't the same as converting, but I think it does feel that way.
I was discussing with my mother this thread. She spoke in her wisdom and experience on how hard that is to switch parishes. She's had to do this more than 3 times in 3 states, so she knows what you are experiencing!
When I described some of the things that your priest is doing, Elizabeth, she thought he sounds like he's going through a vocation crisis or struggle within himself. So she reminded above all to pray for the priest -- get masses said for him. She also reminded me of a book on the The Cure d'Ars by Abbe Francis Trochu. During the Napoleonic era the French Church broke off from the Roman Catholic Church and their mass became invalid. But his parents stayed at a parish until they were absolutely sure that their priest and Mass were no longer in line with Rome, even though their friends and family had left.
Anyway...just wanted to pass that along....
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Jennifer G. Miller
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MacBeth
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Here's a freebie that might be of help, too (and thanks to Mary, Jenn, and everyone who posted all the great info!!):
End Liturgical Abuse Now!
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MacBeth in NY
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MaryM
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Angie,
I think this article in Christifidelis might be helpful to you. It is a comparison of canonical vs. our democractic judicial system. This in a sense gets at what you talked about in knowing that businesses and private sector have specific procedures to follow when there are complaints and you want to make sure you are following those within the Church system. It uses the example of liturgical abuses to illustrate its points. The "steps" outlined are what was written in the Jimmy Akin book as well.
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Mary M. in Denver
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Elizabeth
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I recently read this article by Fr. Fessio, SJ in a back issue of the Dossier. Together with the one by Bishop Keating, I think I have my primer on the Mass as Vatican II intended.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: liturgical help
