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hopalenik
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| Posted: Oct 26 2007 at 9:44pm | IP Logged
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Hi,
Here are some more purgatory references. These are of course indirect.
Mt 5:48-be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect
Heb 12:14-strive for holiness w/o which cannot see God
Jame 3:@- we all fall short in some respects
Rev 21:27-nothing unclean shall enter heaven
1 Jn 5:16-17-degrees of sin distinguished
Jam 1:14-15-when sin reaches maturity gives birth to death
2 Sam 12:13-14-David, though forgiven, still punished for sin
Mt 5:26-you will not be released until paid last penny
Mt 12:32-sin against Holy Spirit not forgiven in this day or the next.
Mat 12:36-account for every idle word on judgement day
1 Pet 3:18-20, 4:6-Jesus preached to the souls in prison
2 Tim 1:16-18-Paul prays for dead friend Onesiphorus
1 Cor 15:29-30-Paul mentions people baptizing for the dead.
These are some scripture verses for Intercessory Prayer to Saints
1) Rom 15:30-join me by your prayers to God on my behalf
2) Col 4:3; 1 Thess 5:25-Pray for us
3) 2 Th 1:11-we always pray for you
4)2 Th 3:1-finally, brothers, pray for us
5) Eph 6:18-19-making supplication for all the saints and for me
6) Tob 12:12-angel presents Tobit and Sarah's prayer to God
7) Rev 5:8-angel offers prayers of the holy ones to God
If Saint Paul was once saved, always saved why did he keep asking people to pray for him?
Veneration of Saints
1) Jos 5:14-Joshua fell prostrate in worship before angel
2) Dan 8:17-Daniel fell prostrate in terror before Gabriel
3) tob 12:16-Tobiah and Tobit fall to ground before Raphael
4) Mt 18:10-angels in heaven always see face of God (we venerate the angels because of their great dignity, which comes from their union wiht God. Saints also united with God).
5) 1 Jn 3:2-we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is
6) 1 Thess 1:5-8- you became an example to all the believers
7) Heb 13:7-remember leaders, consider/imitate their faith and life
Suffering
1) Mt 10:38-take up your cross and follow me
2) Romans 8:16-17 heirs with Christ provided we suffer with him
3) Romans 8:18-present suffering nothing compared with future glory
4) Phil 1:28-29-granted to believe, also to suffer for him
5)Col 1:24-filling up what is lacking in Christ sufferings
6) Heb 12:5-7 whom God loves, he disciplines as sons
7) Heb 12:11-discipline seems painful, but brings righteousness
8) 1 Pet 1:6-for a while you must suffer various trials
9) 1 Pet 2:19-21-suffering=grace, Jesus suffered as our example
I mostly referenced the Catholic Verse Finder-1-505-327-5343. Quite Handy.
http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/ The founder is John Martignoni. He does a phenomenal job of explaining Catholic Doctrine from scripture only. He is conscise and easily understandable and he is on EWTN's Catholic Answers alot. Scott Hahn does a fabulous job in a 13 CD set Called Romanism in Romans of completely demolishing any possibility that St. Paul believed in Once Saved Always Saved, Justification by Faith Alone, or the Health and Wealth Gospel. But I am sure that you are overwhelmed right now. I don't check this very often but if you would like other specific sitations for bible verses for other topics, post the question.
Thanks,
Holly
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hereinantwerp
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| Posted: Oct 26 2007 at 10:01pm | IP Logged
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enjoythejourney wrote:
I went up, and asked to have the elders pray over me for healing. The preacher asked if I had unconfessed or unresolved sin in my life. To be completely honest, I was put off and shocked at this question, not real sure what to say...I admitted that I probably did, and he acted as if my lupus was a direct result of that unreconciled sin. He wouldn't allow the elders to pray with me.
I like the way Catholics are encouraged to offer up their sufferings...it is a much more beautiful picture of Christ's suffering for us, I think.
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I'm so sorry that happened to you!
Unfortunately, I don't think it is that uncommon.  Although theologically many evangelicals would say the right things about suffering, in practice . . .
For me I have been in both the "evangelical" and the "charismatic" branches of the protestant churches. It seemed like in the first it was up to the individual to read the Bible a lot and somehow pull themselves up by the bootstraps--in the latter you are not healed because you do not have enough "faith". But on both sides there have been wonderful, gracious individuals that are very much the exception!! Who don't look for someone or something to blame, but are able to just listen, be with someone, help in practical ways.
But I do think there is kind of a viewpoint that suffering is something to overcome--if you are living a "victorious" life in faith. Not that it is just--PART OF LIFE!! Jesus suffered greatly, should we expect not to? The servant is not greater than the master. Following the path of his footsteps--leads to the Cross. Our suffering is a way we indentify with Jesus, a way that we understand his heart in a much deeper way--and the need for salvation, and redemption, in a world fallen far past repair.
I do not know what Catholics believe about these things but I know I have been blessed in Catholic churches, and that there SEEMS to be a very different "feel" to the thing. Suffering seems to be more of a mystery, not something that is easily "explained away." We lived in Antwerp, Belgium for several years. I would go to the Cathedral, and there was the "Descent From the Cross" by Rubens (INCREDIBLE!!!). In most Cathedrals there is art, carvings or paintings, depicting the stations of the Cross, encouraging us to meditate on the life of Christ, including his sufferings. And there was QUIETNESS. It isn't just "victory", and ignore or marginalize the rest----I feel like I have a few axes to grind here and that is NOT a good spirit. But I do feel frustrated sometimes, I do feel a lack of connection in my own sufferings. There are exceptions, but they are EXCEPTIONS. (You never know, that could be true in Catholic churches as well, as genuine suffering just makes people uncomfortable--we all want to believe we can be immune somehow, that it won't happen to us. But I think in the protestant churches some right teaching sometimes might help matters!)
But at this point in my life I feel open to learn from varied sources !
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Angela Nelson
Mother to Simon (13), Calvin (9), and Lyddie Rose (3)
my blog: live and learn
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Michaela
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| Posted: Oct 27 2007 at 12:55am | IP Logged
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enjoythejourney wrote:
In the end, even if Purgatory is nothing more than man-made ideas we STILL HAVE THE PROMISE OF Heaven and Hell, that is Biblical.
I hope this doesn't open a can of worms. Certainly not my intention. I so appreciate the honest dialogue and discussion we're having here and I thank you for letting me, a fellow journeyer take it with you all.
More and more, my path is leading to Rome. Sacred Tradition means *alot* to me and my family and it is the one thing we've been looking for we couldn't seem to find anywhere else.
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This thread has been interesting to read. The questions asked and the answers given have all been charitable. During my journey, I had purchased every book mentioned, and many many more that haven't been, to answer all the questions I had.
 Lindsay's post reminded me of this one:
By What Authority? An Evangelical Discovers Catholic Tradition
The first five pages of Chapter 1: The Traditions of Men are available for reading at Amazon.
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Michaela
Momma to Nicholas 16, Nathan 13, Olivia 13, Teresa 6, & Anthony 3
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: Oct 27 2007 at 7:10am | IP Logged
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enjoythejourney wrote:
"what the Bible says Goes!" around those churches...which is NOT a bad thing, but just different from the RCC.
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Part of the draw to Catholicism for me was that in Protestant churches, it seems more like it is "What *I* interprete the Bible to say goes!"
I don't like leaning on my own understanding. I like looking at thousands of years of how Christians interpreted scripture. The Catholic church also teaches the infallibility of scripture, they just claim to be the source of judging that infallibility (after all, they are the ones who put the books together to begin with) and the guide for interpreting the scripture. The Tradition is the guide for how to interpret things, and as the literally thousands of Protestant denominations will tell you, there are countless ways it can be interpreted.
It seems that Christ didn't create a Bible upon leaving the earth, he created a Church that has given us sacred scripture and an amazing resource for infallible interpretation. I just don't think God would hand us a book and say, here, do your best. Yes, he gave us the holy spirit, but I know a lot of SINCERE people earnestly looking to the holy spirit as a guide for interpreting the Bible, and they all think it says something different. I believe God gave us a better system than that!
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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SherryCurp
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I'd like to recommend one more book: Catholic and Christian, by Alan Schreck.
About twenty years ago, my soon-to-be husband told me that he thought might have to become Catholic. My first response was a visceral "NOOOOO" that probably reverberated to the center of the earth. This book was the first one I read, and it did a great job of explaining (and "translating") a lot of Catholic teaching for this raised-Evangelical-in-Sunday-School-since-birth-because-Mom- was-teaching kid. We were received into full communion together the Easter after we were married.
I, too, really appreciate the charitable and helpful tone of this conversation; I've seen many such devolve rather rapidly into something significantly less edifying.
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"The fundamental objective of the formation of the lay faithful is an ever-clearer discovery of one's vocation and the ever-greater willingness to live it so as to fulfil one's mission." -JPII
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Teach me about Catholicism??
