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enjoythejourney
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I know that in my experience with Baptist-like churches, suffering is often (not always, but often)treated as a symptom of sin in one's life.
When I became diagnosed with lupus (which is a LONG story in itself, and not a diagnosis I necessarily agree with) I went up to the altar for prayer at church. This was very common at this particular church. I've seen people go up for prayer for anything from sickness to blessing a new house, whatever.
I went up, and asked to have the elders pray over me for healing. The preacher asked if I had unconfessed or unresolved sin in my life. To be completely honest, I was put off and shocked at this question, not real sure what to say...I admitted that I probably did, and he acted as if my lupus was a direct result of that unreconciled sin. He wouldn't allow the elders to pray with me.
Which is again, another big story in itself. Sometimes I think the protestant churches (my only experience is with Quaker & Baptist) use suffering as a posterchild for sin.
I like the way Catholics are encouraged to offer up their sufferings...it is a much more beautiful picture of Christ's suffering for us, I think.
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LisaR
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enjoythejourney wrote:
When I became diagnosed with lupus (which is a LONG story in itself, and not a diagnosis I necessarily agree with) I went up to the altar for prayer at church. This was very common at this particular church. I've seen people go up for prayer for anything from sickness to blessing a new house, whatever.
I went up, and asked to have the elders pray over me for healing. The preacher asked if I had unconfessed or unresolved sin in my life. To be completely honest, I was put off and shocked at this question, not real sure what to say...I admitted that I probably did, and he acted as if my lupus was a direct result of that unreconciled sin. He wouldn't allow the elders to pray with me.
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I was recently diagnosed with Lupus, and this caught my eye. this IS what my traumatic memories are of as a Protestant child though, at a christian school- going up to be prayed over at the altar, but being told my sin could be the cause of my frequent nosebleeds, for example. (turns out I have a genetic bleeding disorder)
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Helen
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hereinantwerp wrote:
what to do with suffering--(Now THAT is an area I would really like to explore more, how Catholics understand suffering).
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Dear Angela,
Here's an older thread which deals with "offering up."
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ChristinaK
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Wow Lindsey, I can't believe that happened to you. I am really appalled. At my church we always pray for people who are suffering from illnesses and other medical problems and I have never heard my pastor ask someone who was ill if they had unconfessed sin. We often pray as an entire congregation for someone who is ill or injured. I'm really sorry that you experienced that.
I'm sure that there are some illnesses that can be the consequence of sinful behavior i.e. illnesses that can be transmitted by drug use or immoral sexual behavior but the illness is the consequence of the behavior itself not some punishment for unconfessed sin.
I don't know if you still attend that church but I can certainly see why you would want to leave it. I think it is wrong for a preacher to refuse to pray for someone.
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Essy
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"She is referencing the practice of Israel to have the mother (not the spouse) of the king act as queen."
Wow! I'm a lifelong Catholic and love Mary dearly and had never heard of this. It makes perfect sense why the Mother of my King is also my Queen. Thank you all so much for this thread, it has touched my heart dearly.
Just wanted to add a tiny little bit to the purgatory discussion. Souls in Purgatory ARE saved(and can also intercede for us)! They will eventually get to experience the fullness of heaven...Purgatory is just a first stop(actual length of time is un-certain) for purification purposes.
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CandaceC
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Wow, Lindsey! I am so sorry for your experience.
I have not read the article fully yet that was listed earlier. But, again, I was raised Baptist and here is where my beliefs lie in regards to suffering. I would love to hear how this differs from you as Catholics!
I believe that we are CALLED to suffer as followers of Christ. As Christians, we are followers of JESUS...who suffered the ultimate suffering. We are to be like Him...and though we may not always understand it, the Lord uses the suffering in our life.
He uses our suffering to make us more like Christ - be that more patient, more understanding, more loving...more like Jesus.
He uses our suffering as part of our sanctification process. He is refining us...
We can use our experiences in the midst of trials to comfort others when they go through suffering. We all have mountain top experiences, we all have valleys...while we are on the mountain top - we need to be reaching down to those in the valley and encouraging them and praying for them. And when I am in the valley, as I have been many times in the past, I pray that my fellow brothers and sisters will be there for me too.
I believe that suffering is a part of this life, I believe the Lord uses it in SO many ways in our lives and in our walk with Him. Rom. 8:28...we may not always understand it or His ways, but He does have GOOD in mind for us.
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teachingmom
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ChristinaK wrote:
| One thing that I don't understand at all is purgatory? I'm going through a bible study at church now on eternity, eternal judgements, heaven and hell and have been wondering about the Catholic belief of purgatory? Could someone explain it for me or point me to a source that explains it? |
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As has already been mentioned, purgatory is a preparation for heaven. Some people have the mistaken notion that it is some sort of "third final destination" that Catholics believe in. As if some people die and go to heaven, some to hell, and the rest to purgatory. Forever.
That is simply wrong. Purgatory is sort of "on the way" to heaven. Anyone in purgatory at this very moment is destined for heaven.
I have a book to recommend as a fantastic resource in understanding purgatory. It's Catherine of Genoa: Purgation and Purgatory, The Spiritual Dialogue. I read it many years ago now, but remember that she had some very clear images that made purgatory (which was a teaching that I had difficulty with at one point) much more understandable. She describes it in such positive terms -- as a time in which we are almost with God in heaven but not quite, almost behind a very thick veil; a time of purification that is painful, not in the sense of punishment, but in the sense of the pain of the beloved who longs to be in complete union with the Lover but must wait. I had a theology professor in graduate school who enjoyed referring to purgatory as "the washing of the hands before the Great Banquet."
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ChristinaK
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Could somebody give me scripture references with regard to purgatory?
Thanks again for your willingness to share about your faith.
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aussieannie
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ChristinaK wrote:
| Could somebody give me scripture references with regard to purgatory? |
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I Corinthians 3:9-17
“For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building. According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid the foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold or silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw– each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved but only as through fire.
Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? If any one destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and that temple you are.”
2 Maccabees (43-46)
"And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."
Christina, the Jewish people believed in praying for the dead as shown above in Maccabees. Now you may be wondering about this Old Testament book. Other Christian denominations do not have this book and six others from the Old Testament in their modern day bible. The reason for this, is that it was taken out during the Reformation as they were books from the Old Testament that supported many Catholic doctrines today that have been discarded by other denominations. I hope to get back soon to explain this more fully and giving the proof that the complete bible as we know it should include these books.
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teachingmom
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Purgatory is not explicitly mentioned in scripture. It is one of our beliefs that was "fleshed out" more based on Tradition. But there are some scriptures that refer to it.
1 Corinthians 3:14–15: "If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." Quoting from the Catholic Answers website: "You see, the Latinate word purgatory means a purgation or burning by fire. Paul in these verses refers to a purgation process whereby a man is saved even though his works are burned away. This is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches. A person at death who still has personal faults is prevented from entering into heaven because he is not completely purified. He must go through a period of purgation in order to be made clean, for nothing unclean will enter heaven (cf. Rev. 21:27)."
And from the same source: "Matthew 12:32 says that some people who sin "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." This suggests that there are some sins that will be forgiven in the age to come. If there is no purification after death, then this passage doesn’t make much sense."
One of the clearest references comes from 2 Maccabees 12:40-45 in which prayers and sacrifices were offered for the dead. Now that is one of the Deuterocanonical books of the Bible. That is to say, one of the books that was originally in the Canon, going back to the Council of Rome in 382, but that later Protestants came to believe were not inspired after all. (I found it interesting to read that the Deuterocanonical books were all included in the first Bible printed ever -- the Guttenberg Bible.) However, even if one does not believe that the books of Maccabee belong in the Bible, it still shows that the Jewish people even before the time of Christ recognized that purification after death was necessary and that prayers and sacrifices for the dead could help in the purification.
Hope this helps a bit.
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teachingmom
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 Anne posted as I was writing my reply. Thus the repetitious nature of my post. Sorry!
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MaryM
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hereinantwerp wrote:
| I do not know what is meant by the Queen Mother of the Davidic kingdom? Is it a specific person, or David's own mother? The only Queen Mothers I recall being very "active" are bad ones, like Jezebel or Athaliah. NOT that I would relate a person like that in any way to Mary! |
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It really is not about the individual OT women/queens but about the specific role of queen mother that is important to understanding the fulfillment in the NT. In the Davidic kingdom when a new king assumed the throne, his mother was given the special title gebirah, which in Hebrew means "great lady" or "queen." As queen mother she possessed the second most powerful position in the kingdom - second only to the king himself. (As was pointed out it was the mother not the wife of the king who held the queen role for the reasons mentioned).
It's actually David's wife and Solomon's mother, Bathsheba, who is the best example of the importance of the queen mother. As David's wife she was humble and subjective in his presense-bowing before him, but when her son becomes king her position is exalted. In 1 Kings 2:19-20 Solomon rose to meet her and bowed down to her. He seated her at his right hand (an action that is charged with royal symbolism - the most powerful seat he could offer her). He also tells her he will not refuse her request.
Specifically in that last part we see the queen mother in her role as advocate. The queen mother had the special job of bringing the petitions of the people to her royal son. Adonijah recogonized the important role of the queen mother as advocate and was confident when he asked her to take his petition to the king. And Solomon's response to her is "Make your request my mother; for I will not refuse you."(1 Kings 2:20) (Now before one argues that Solomon denied the request remember that it was the wickedness of Adonijahs' intentions that was the reason for the denial and does not diminish the gibirah's power to intercede.)
In 1 and 2 Kings almost everytime that a new king is introduced in a narrative it mentions the king's mother as well, highlighting her important part in the succession of the dynasty. It is significant that the queen mother was so impotant that she is the first official in the royal court listed when describing those surrendered to the Babylonians (2 Kings 24:12).
The queen mother appears in the OT prophecies of the coming of the messiah and his renewed kingdom. (Ex: Isaiah 7:14)
Essy wrote:
"She is referencing the practice of Israel to have the mother (not the spouse) of the king act as queen."
Wow! I'm a lifelong Catholic and love Mary dearly and had never heard of this. It makes perfect sense why the Mother of my King is also my Queen. Thank you all so much for this thread, it has touched my heart dearly.
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Elizabeth recognizes this also and greets Mary with "Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? (Luke 1:43). The title "mother of my lord" was used to address the queen mother of the reigning king. In using this title Elizabeth recognizes the great dignity of Mary's role as queen mother. Like you Essy, I think this is just fascinating and comforting.
Also NT is Matthew's account of the visit of the magi. Jesus' kingship is being recognized for the first time and the king's mother is prominent at his side. The focus in on mother and child - Joseph is conspicuously not mentioned after being very prominent in the earlier parts of Matthew's gospel account.
In honoring Mary as queen mother, we do not take anything away from Christ. In fact, understanding Mary as queen mother emphasizes how she is completely subordinate to Christ. Just as the queen mother's royal office is based entirely on her son's kingship, so too Mary's exalted position in the kingdom depends enirely on her son, Jesus. Quoted from the Catholic for a Reason book I mentioned above. I really cannot recommend that book and specific chapter enough.
And I don't feel I can give justice to this topic in my rambling here. There is just so much there. I hope it has helped some though.
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Angie Mc
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teachingmom wrote:
| She describes it in such positive terms -- as a time in which we are almost with God in heaven but not quite, almost behind a very thick veil; a time of purification that is painful, not in the sense of punishment, but in the sense of the pain of the beloved who longs to be in complete union with the Lover but must wait. |
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Lovely.
ChristinaK wrote:
Could somebody give me scripture references with regard to purgatory?
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One way of looking at purgatory that helped me to accept it as part of Sacred Tradition is this:
If I was going to meet the President or King of a country, I would do some serious preparing, to include being all clean and shiney before being presented...
"Nothing unclean will enter it." Revelation 21:27
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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MichelleW
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I am almost embarrassed by the simplicity of this analogy, but I am going to put it forth because I have found it useful in explaining purgatory.
Imagine that you come to a great feast at the home of someone you dearly love and respect. It has been quite a journey, and along the way you managed to get very muddy, and mussed. When you arrive at the home, you ring the doorbell and the door is opened to you. Immediately you hear the laughter, smell the wonderful feast and feel the warmth of the home. But, instead of running into the feast, the first thing you do is stop in the powder room. You have come to this home of a dear honored one and you desire to take off your muddy things, clean your shoes, comb your hair, etc.
In this analogy, you have arrived at the home, but cannot yet partake of the feast. Those around the table rejoice because you are there, even if you are not feasting with them. You are not going anywhere else, eventually you will join them around the table.
The analogy breaks down very quickly, because, obviously God is doing the purifying and not you, but it is still a useful analogy. Purgatory is for those who will be entering the Throne Room. It is not an alternate hell, it is for the purification of the believer.
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CrunchyMom
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CandaceC wrote:
| He uses our suffering as part of our sanctification process. He is refining us... |
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Which is exactly where the teaching of purgatory comes in. If we die before that sanctification is complete, we have still further need of the refiner's fire in purgatory.
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Lindsay
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onemoretracy
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CandaceC wrote:
I believe that we are CALLED to suffer as followers of Christ. As Christians, we are followers of JESUS...who suffered the ultimate suffering. We are to be like Him...and though we may not always understand it, the Lord uses the suffering in our life.
He uses our suffering to make us more like Christ - be that more patient, more understanding, more loving...more like Jesus.
He uses our suffering as part of our sanctification process. He is refining us...
We can use our experiences in the midst of trials to comfort others when they go through suffering. We all have mountain top experiences, we all have valleys...while we are on the mountain top - we need to be reaching down to those in the valley and encouraging them and praying for them. And when I am in the valley, as I have been many times in the past, I pray that my fellow brothers and sisters will be there for me too.
I believe that suffering is a part of this life, I believe the Lord uses it in SO many ways in our lives and in our walk with Him. Rom. 8:28...we may not always understand it or His ways, but He does have GOOD in mind for us. |
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Candace, I don't think anything that you have said here contradicts with the Catholic view of suffering.
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aussieannie
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CandaceC wrote:
I believe that we are CALLED to suffer as followers of Christ. As Christians, we are followers of JESUS...who suffered the ultimate suffering. We are to be like Him...and though we may not always understand it, the Lord uses the suffering in our life.
He uses our suffering to make us more like Christ - be that more patient, more understanding, more loving...more like Jesus.
He uses our suffering as part of our sanctification process. He is refining us...
We can use our experiences in the midst of trials to comfort others when they go through suffering. We all have mountain top experiences, we all have valleys...while we are on the mountain top - we need to be reaching down to those in the valley and encouraging them and praying for them. And when I am in the valley, as I have been many times in the past, I pray that my fellow brothers and sisters will be there for me too.
I believe that suffering is a part of this life, I believe the Lord uses it in SO many ways in our lives and in our walk with Him. Rom. 8:28...we may not always understand it or His ways, but He does have GOOD in mind for us. |
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onemoretracy wrote:
| Candace, I don't think anything that you have said here contradicts with the Catholic view of suffering. |
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Yes, it doesn't contradict, in fact it explains very well the Catholic position on suffering.
Here is a good Bible quote to support the understand of suffering in Christ's followers:
Colossians 1:24
"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church"
Then I found a great article on suffering by Father William Most Suffering to God's Children and he gives the Catholic position on this particular passage, amongst other things, that can be so confusing to those who do not see the true merit in suffering:
Fr William Most wrote:
Hence St. Paul said, in Colossians 1. 24: "I fill up the things that are lacking to the sufferings of Christ in my flesh, for His body, which is the Church." Of course, nothing is lacking to the sufferings of Christ considered as an individual. But the whole Christ, Head and members, can be deficient. Paul wants to do what we just said, to make up for the a lack of opening in other members of Christ.
We gather, there is triple reason for suffering. It cleans up the tarnished image of the Father and of Christ in us; it helps us grow to spiritual maturity; it helps give the Father the pleasure of being able to give to other, deficient children. |
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Once again we are referring to the Mystical Body of Christ that Paul often refers to, that we as Catholics have a full understanding of. This is why we pray to the saints, this is why we pray for the dead, this is why they pray for us - we are all one in this living body of Christ - and it is SUCH a beautiful thing!
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aussieannie
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Also, I didn't get back to talk about why Catholic use the Deuterocanonicals. I can't find the best article that I have ever read on this point, but here are some links from Catholic Answers on the subject:
How to Defend the Deuterocanonicals
The Old Testament Canon
Did the Catholic Church Add to the Old Testament?
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JennGM
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MichelleW wrote:
I am almost embarrassed by the simplicity of this analogy, but I am going to put it forth because I have found it useful in explaining purgatory.
Imagine that you come to a great feast at the home of someone you dearly love and respect. It has been quite a journey, and along the way you managed to get very muddy, and mussed. When you arrive at the home, you ring the doorbell and the door is opened to you. Immediately you hear the laughter, smell the wonderful feast and feel the warmth of the home. But, instead of running into the feast, the first thing you do is stop in the powder room. You have come to this home of a dear honored one and you desire to take off your muddy things, clean your shoes, comb your hair, etc.
In this analogy, you have arrived at the home, but cannot yet partake of the feast. Those around the table rejoice because you are there, even if you are not feasting with them. You are not going anywhere else, eventually you will join them around the table.
The analogy breaks down very quickly, because, obviously God is doing the purifying and not you, but it is still a useful analogy. Purgatory is for those who will be entering the Throne Room. It is not an alternate hell, it is for the purification of the believer. |
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Don't be embarrassed by it, Michelle. It's very good. C.S. Lewis who never became a Catholic, thought the concept of purgatory made sense. He said we oursleves would choose to to be cleansed because we would recognize how unworthy and unclean we are to be in God's presence. Some of his point was that it's not God making us go.
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enjoythejourney
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It does make sense to me as well, and I'm not Catholic either.
This is the way I look at it. Sacred Tradition is a beautiful thing. Most protestants cannot appreciate it because it is *SO SORELY LACKING* in 80-90% (if not more) protestant churches in America. Because they do not have sacred tradition, it is "what the Bible says Goes!" around those churches...which is NOT a bad thing, but just different from the RCC.
In the end, even if Purgatory is nothing more than man-made ideas we STILL HAVE THE PROMISE OF Heaven and Hell, that is Biblical.
I hope this doesn't open a can of worms. Certainly not my intention. I so appreciate the honest dialogue and discussion we're having here and I thank you for letting me, a fellow journeyer take it with you all.
More and more, my path is leading to Rome. Sacred Tradition means *alot* to me and my family and it is the one thing we've been looking for we couldn't seem to find anywhere else.
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Lindsey
(here to learn more about the RCC)
Mom to:
Cleo (7)
Marcy-Marie (4)
Reece (3)
http://justenjoythejourney.blogspot.com
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Teach me about Catholicism??
