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hopalenik
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Nina,
You are absolutely right about the different path with nursing...
I went back to work with my first and my best friend, who had converted to devout Catholicism, was quite upset. At the time, I was not really a practicing Catholic and probably in a state of mortal sin but I remember very clearly that I had no reservations about going back to work at all. Until Tara was a year and I quit pumping for her at work. Then I felt guilt, guilt and more guilt. It was unbearable from that day until I quit work, 8 months later. Looking back with hindsight, I can say without any shadow of a doubt, God wanted me to go back to work full time with my first, up until I quit pumping. He wanted me to master the art of pumping, so that when my twins came along 8 months later, I would know exactly how to do it. My son, would have died without breast milk, and he was incapable of eating for the first 6 weeks of his life and then quit eating at about 9 months. God's plan, was for me to go back to work, so that my son would live. Now if Josh had died, I would not have returned to the church, my husband I would be divorced, Tegan, and Keara would not exist and my 2 girls would be psychotic. But many devout Catholics have told me that I am making things up to justify my past mistake of being a working mom. I actually had one person remind me that I needed to go to confession for that, and I said that I couldn't because I did not feel that it was wrong for the first year. I suppose that I will find out at my death but I really have no doubts on the issue. I just think that it is very easy for us to speak for God when we really want to justify our position or defend our reasoning for our lifestyle. I think that the Kippleys, definitely had that attitude. But I also think that people with different positions on breastfeeding, or bottlefeeding, or sleeping or using Babywise, or not child spacing at all get the same way.
I try to nurse to close to 2 years. I like to wean between 20 and 24 months. I personally think that is the right time. I personally think 1 year is too short, but I am not convinced that nursing past 2 holds much benefit in my family. I kicked my fourth out of bed at 10 months because she was unbearably squirmy, but my fifth is still with us at 15 months. I nurse with the naps to get extended infertility to at least one year post partum becasue I want to be as sure as I can be that my uterus with the repeat X on it won't rupture from lack of healing. After one year, I lay off and hope the child will wean at night quickly. I am amazed at the fortitude of someone like Lisbet who can nurse all those children. God must not have made me quit so strong or energetic. In the beginning, I thought the Kippleys were right and that I was doing something terribly evil by not living up to their standards. Now I see differently. They have a good model that has done wonders for many families. I know some mothers, who swear that there family life was turned around by reading Sheila's materials. But it obviously isn't necessary or good for all. Sometimes I think that we are just so lost as a society that we fixated and obsess over the things that are obviously good in our hopeless attempts to make something-anything right in this degenerate culture in which we live. Obviously nursing, and modest dressing are good things,especially today, but it is frustrating that we all can get so emotionally upset about our differences over them. Is it that our pride needs a knocking a bit?
Is Satan trying to create rifts in our Catholic culture, self doubt and worry in our homes? Is Satan trying to keep us busy reading one philosophy on mothering after another, when we should be just mothering? I don't know...I am mostly rhetorically asking myself these questions. But I see it on this forum, alot, and other sights-Sonlight, etc....where the same kinds of issues, in which everyone generally agrees, become such uncomfortable topics.
Holly
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Nina Murphy
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Quote:
I am amazed at the fortitude of someone like Lisbet who can nurse all those children. God must not have made me quit so strong or energetic.
In the beginning, I thought the Kippleys were right and that I was doing something terribly evil by not living up to their standards.
Sometimes I think that we are just so lost as a society that we fixated and obsess over the things that are obviously good in our hopeless attempts to make something-anything right in this degenerate culture in which we live. Obviously nursing, and modest dressing are good things,especially today, but it is frustrating that we all can get so emotionally upset about our differences over them. Is it that our pride needs a knocking a bit?
Is Satan trying to create rifts in our Catholic culture, self doubt and worry in our homes? Is Satan trying to keep us busy reading one philosophy on mothering after another, when we should be just mothering? I don't know...
Holly |
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Holly, I have so appreciated all of your posts; they are really giving me food for thought!
I was thinking the same thing about those moms like our Lisa----love your example of God's light shining in the darkness, Lisa!---she absolutely is BLESSED and amazing and selfless. I know what you mean about doubting you would have that strength----I can really fall apart with all of the hormones and sleep-deprivation fall outs. Not everyone is built the same or has the same temperament, either.  So: let's admire those who are able to do it in appreciation of God's goodness and awesome power, and give everyone else, if need be, a break.
I also was heavily influenced by lots of reading in my early mothering years. Now, I look back and think: why was I so obsessed? I caused myself unnecessary suffering and "striving". God has really humbled me. I see both sides of each issue now....what I think of as the "Ideals" with a capital I: total breastfeeding, not planning family, total homeschooling. In each area, I have had setbacks, temptations, and the resulting need to adjust my standards of perfection and totality.
I think we need to remind ourselves that where the Church defines something dogmatically and clearly---where things are morally fixed, we are to give complete assent and obedience; but on areas of moral neutrality, we need to be flexible, able to admit differences. For, after all, as St. Paul exhorts us: all of the body parts NEED to function differently in order to keep that body whole and healthy!
Yes, I agree so much about the comment about living in today's unsupportive milieu! It has made us so nervous about defining ourselves and protecting our children and our families. Sometimes I think (and I hope you will follow me here) that it has been a negative thing to focus so heavily on prenatal health and cautionary living. It has made women paranoid and dreading of even being pregnant. Everything is a risk; everything is fraught with danger and ensuing guilt. It takes a super-woman to be able to be in the mental and physical health to handle it. So, ergo, many women do not want to be pregnant and have that responsibility. And they feel completely responsible for the outcome, as opposed to saying: perhaps God wanted it this way; he is holding me in the palm of His hand. It is all above me and out of my hands....
Is Satan trying to break us down and make us suspicious of one another: you bet! We need to REALLY fight it and work on building each other up. Many women can become terribly discouraged, esp. those not having been raised by women and families who support what we are trying to live up to now.
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God bless,
~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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Maryan
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Nina Murphy wrote:
| Is satan trying to break us down and make us suspicious of one another: you bet! We need to REALLY fight it and work on building each other up. Many women can become terribly discouraged, esp. those not having been raised by women and families who support what we are trying to live up to now. |
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Nina - Good advice! We definitely should be building each other up!! And I just want to add that I regret that I singled out the Kippley's in my original post. That wasn't "building up." As I edited, I can appreciate that they have been very helpful to many couples.
My intent was to say that having children is SUCH a blessing and shouldn't boil down to breastfeeders vs. ecological nursing vs. bottle feeders. I don't think judge people's motherhood based on their nursing "schedules or lack thereof" IYKWIM.
Our culture is so anti-family it seems that we shouldn't divide ourselves over the lines of nursing or not. To me that's not where the "battle" lies. Satan would love to divide those that are open to life in an anti-life society. So your advice was the positive approach to what I was trying to say...
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Maryan
Mom to 6 boys & 1 girl: JP('01), B ('03), M('05), L('06), Ph ('08), M ('10), James born 5/1/12
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Rachel May
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Lisa,
Thank you for the thoughts and the link. I think this must be the book Mother and Infant: The moral theology of self-giving motherhood in light of the exemplar couplet Mary and Jesus Christ by William Virtue. I added it to my wish list!
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Rachel
Thomas and Anthony (10), Maria (8), Charles (6), Cecilia (5), James (3), and Joseph (1)
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Angie Mc
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Here are a three principles that have brought me a lot of consolation over the years...
Those who promote a *good* (breastfeeding, large families, stay-at-home motherhood, homeschooling, etc.) offer me two main things. Their expertise and details on a particular subject are helpful because I don't have the time or inclination to become an expert or specialist on so many topics. I also enjoy *seeing* living examples of a way of life that I may not have ever seen or experienced. Yet, because promoters are promoters they and their promotion are, by design, limited. Their specialty can only be one piece of a complex puzzle. Their examples can only give a glimpse into possibilities. Each family is called to discern how all *good* will come together within their family in a unique way.
When it appears that two *goods* are competing or that people within loving relationships are at odds, I know something is amiss. God helps us to find harmony between what is good, for example the good of breastfeeding and the good of being open to a large family. God helps us to find harmony between relationships, such as the needs of both a baby and her mother.
I'm not a relativist or "whatever works for you" type gal. Strong, objective arguments challenge me to think more clearly and act more consistently on my values. Yet, my life decisions aren't always objective or by any promoter's book. I ultimately rest in the peace of God's grace that works through the sacrament of marriage and trust that through our family mistakes and triumphs, God is bringing us closer to Him.
Wow, I hope that didn't sound too deep! I think I'm just mellowing in my maturing years  .
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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Angie Mc
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| Posted: Oct 12 2007 at 7:52pm | IP Logged
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LisaR wrote:
However, this break from the 4real boards has been so great for our family. I am rededicated to focusing my energy elsewhere but here  so it might be awhile! |
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Love it! You go girl 
Thanks to all who have contributed to this topic.
Love,
__________________
Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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Maryan
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| Posted: Oct 13 2007 at 10:10am | IP Logged
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Another piece of sage advice, Angie. Thanks!
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Maryan
Mom to 6 boys & 1 girl: JP('01), B ('03), M('05), L('06), Ph ('08), M ('10), James born 5/1/12
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mimmyof5
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Nina Murphy wrote:
| Many women can become terribly discouraged, esp. those not having been raised by women and families who support what we are trying to live up to now. |
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I just read this whole thread, and it definitely gave me a lot to think about. The above comment really hit home. As mothers we have such an influence on our children, especially by how we live our vocation every day. My mil had 14 children. Yet her attitude toward her children having families seemed negative. When one sil miscarried, my mil said it was for the best because she was busy enough. When another sil was having trouble conceiving, the comment was she didn't need a baby since she had a husband to deal with.
When I was pregnant for the 4th time, I was commenting on how I was looking forward to having another baby, and my sil told me to remember what happened to their mother. It was a warning! It broke my heart. Here was a Catholic mother of 14. Instead of showing her children the joy of having a large family and the blessings that come from one, none of her children wanted to have many children. Even my dh to an extent, although he's always been open to life and thrilled with each pregnancy, he's been worried about me being like his mother. We have the most with 5. Not that having a large family is easy and mother never feels worn out and at the end of her rope. I've felt that way with 5. I so admire you ladies with large families and the joy and thankfulness you show for each child. The gift of your example that you are giving to your children is a treasure.
I've often wondered how much influence this had on the kids leaving the church. Of 14, only 4 are practicing Catholics. And of the 4 we're the only ones with more than 3 children. I think they generally blame the church for their mother being so cranky and miserable because the church made her have 14 children. It certainly makes me stop and think what I'm saying to my children when I lose my temper.
And to bring this long, rambling post back on topic, I hope my girls seeing me nurse the little ones (my 3rd didn't wean until she was 4) has added to the positive example I want to give them about being open to life and treasuring each child. Especially in this culture in which they are growing up - even so prevalent among Catholics.
Janet
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Nina Murphy
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Oh, Janet. I used to be tempted to feel very sad by a post relaying a story like yours.
Now I have decided to---- I *have* to look past the number of children translating into a mother's mood and attitude (because I hear this "story" all of the time from people who are not having children purposely: "my mother had eight", etc.) and rather look to other factors contributing to her mood and attitude.
Who knows? Maybe she dealt with underlying mental or emotional deficiencies or disorders? Maybe she was clinically depressed or holding bitterness in her heart over her marriage, or not rooting out chronic sinful habits, etc. There are so many things that poison the well. Suffering itself in the name of Christ should not turn us away from the Truth. A life of extreme sacrifice should not necessarily "teach us" to no longer encourage a heroic Catholic lifestyle open to embracing the cross of faithful marriage and motherhood.
Anyway, that's how I "deal" with this sad reality of the supposed poor witness that was given by those large families.....I figure even if they had had half or one quarter the number of children, it would have been a very similar mother, a very similar marriage, a very similar outcome with the grown children. 
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~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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Nina Murphy
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One last thing: it hit me when I was in the shower on this 90th Anniversary of Our Lady of Fatima, in those families that break apart or fall away or have bitter outcomes: Did they pray daily? Did they pray the Rosary? Did they teach their children the necessity of the Family Rosary and true devotion, not just "the church makes me do it" but heartfelt surrender?
I always wonder.....
I think today (not just in 1917!), the Rosary is our truest, greatest weapon, and teaching our children devotion to the Immaculate Heart..... It will get us through. SHE will get us through!
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God bless,
~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
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LisaR
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I think we also need to be careful to acknowledge and recognize that having a "larger" family in 20th and 21st cen. America IS HARD. It CAN be very stressful to many and they might need to feel supported and they might need extra help. There are some that feel like somehow there is something wrong with them if they mention that they are struggling, that they might be seen as "failures" and less of a good Catholic mom.
Here's to praying for all of us- and for those who are silently reading. Whether we have 3 kids or 13, Catholic Homeschooling Family life can be challenging - even while we all recognize the heavenly rewards can be great!
Our Lady of Fatima, Pray for Us!!
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
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many little saints in heaven!
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mimmyof5
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Nina Murphy wrote:
| Who knows? Maybe she dealt with underlying mental or emotional deficiencies or disorders? Maybe she was clinically depressed or holding bitterness in her heart over her marriage, or not rooting out chronic sinful habits, etc. There are so many things that poison the well. Suffering itself in the name of Christ should not turn us away from the Truth. |
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I wanted to come back and say a couple of things about my mil since I brought it up. I absolutely agree with you comment above. I believe my mil would have been the same had she only had 4 children instead of 14. When I was newly married with no children of my own I was talking about my mil to father and mentioning how cranky she was but raising 14 kids probably made you that way. He quickly corrected my by mentioning several families we knew that had 10+ children, and the mothers were not bitter and angry. His point was that you couldn't lay the blame for her attitude on the number of children she had. I truly don't know why she always had such a negative attitude about her children having children. I've never figured that out.
I also want to say that I have never heard my mil blame the church for the size of her family. She truly loves her children very, very much. It's taken me 20+ years to see that. However, many of her children have blamed the church and family size for 'mom's cranky disposition'. Of course, society in general helped them with that.
About praying together, especially the rosary: I know that they would pray one decade of the rosary together during Lent. Probably only the younger ones were there for that since the older ones all had jobs and were involved in sports in the evening. I don't know how long they continued this practice. Basically, like so many other Catholic families in the 50's and 60's, they relied on the parish schools. I don't get the feeling that their home was particularly religious - they got that at school, or so they believed. However, my mil is a very faith-filled woman. She wasn't raised Catholic and is not particularly well catechized (she joined the church right before their marriage during WWII), but she has a great deal of faith and definitely relies on prayer.
I guess I really got off topic. My mil did br***feed all her children. I don't know for how long - probably not more than 6 mos. Her 14 children were born within a 20 year span. However, she has always been very healthy. She reminds me of the stereotypical pioneer woman. She is now 85 years old, and over the last 10 years has started to have joint problems (hip replacement, knee surgery). My fil is 89!!! They live alone, garden, take care of their place - where all the children grew up. She has outlived many women who only had a few children and has had better health than many. I know another mother of 14 who certainly did suffer physically from her pregnancies especially from varicose veins. She was hospitalized several times for that. But having many children isn't a certain indicator of poor future health. Too many other factors are involved.
And with that I'll stop.
Janet
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Lisbet
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Janet, Thank you for sharing all of that. It really, really helped me. I have many around me that will easily and readily blame any little health issue, lost wink of sleep, or emotional time I have on the number of children I have. Thank you again!
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
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Mark, 5
Greta, 3
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Dawnie
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Lisbet wrote:
| I have many around me that will easily and readily blame any little health issue, lost wink of sleep, or emotional time I have on the number of children I have. Thank you again! |
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Yeah, they'll blame it on homeschooling, too.
Dawn
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Visit my blog!Water Into Wine:Vino Per Tutto!
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Martha
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Nina wrote:
| Many women can become terribly discouraged, esp. those not having been raised by women and families who support what we are trying to live up to now. |
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I whole-heartedly agree. I know I get asked info all the time. From strangers on the street, at walmart, on the internet. I have a friend who really questions me about this. Who am I to offer them "answers" and who are they to ask complete strangers?
I preface just about everything with something along the lines of "I may not have an answer, but it's highly likely I'll have an opinion." iow, take what works and it won't hurt my feelings if they ditch the rest.
As for those strangers with questions, they are usually people like myself. A woman struggling really hard to do her best with the VERY little she's been given. What is it now? 80% + adults have and/or come from broken homes? There is NO ONE else to ask! There's no doting mother anxiously awaiting the call to impart loving advice and share the joys of motherhood with. There often is not sister, aunt, grandmother, ANYONE to ask! And even if there is such a person, they often don't live anywhere nearby either. I do feel my heart tug for them. It's cruel not to offer any bit of knowledge we can to them. If for no other reason than one day their children could be our daughters/sons-in-law!
Dawnie wrote:
Lisbet wrote:
| I have many around me that will easily and readily blame any little health issue, lost wink of sleep, or emotional time I have on the number of children I have. Thank you again! |
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Yeah, they'll blame it on homeschooling, too.
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ARGH. Isn't that the truth? Heaven forbid homeschooling and/or mothers of many admit that they have bad days just like everyone else. 
I had someone telling me about how they missed sleep the night before because of a kid with nightmares. Guess she thought I'd offer sympathies? Normally probably. After a few minutes of complaints though it gets annoying to someone who is sleep deprived, kwim? Instead, I just very quietly commented that she might be interested in knowing I haven't sleep 8 straight hours in over 10 years. She said, "Wow! Really? You have so much energy!" I just laughed and said God has blessed me with an abundance of children and coffee. 
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Martha
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: NFP and Breastfeeding
