| Author | |
Lisbet
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2006
Location: Michigan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2706
|
| Posted: Sept 28 2007 at 7:13pm | IP Logged
|
 |
|
My thoughts on posting this thread were to discuss the impact that promoting breastfeeding to space babies has had on us moms of many. It was interesting to me how John Kipply (excuse my mistake in an earlier post, for some reason I thought I read that his wife wrote the article.) states that maybe promoting ecological breastfeeding as an ethical way to space babies could have eased 'pressure' on Catholic mothers of many at that time. I don't think this is true at all. I think what will truely ease 'pressure', soften hearts, and win souls, is boldly and louldy proclaiming that it a wonderful thing to have a large family, making no excuses about it!
Do we have a moral obligation to breastfeed? So what if it's not uncommon in some circles to have 3 or so siblings using bottles or pacis? Would it be better for them not to have been born than for them to be bottle fed or dummi soothed?
Oftentimes mothers of many are made to feel like we are, as Martha said, physically defective, or irresponsible, opressed by our --x crazed husbands, etc... And it's articles like what I linked above that fuel this. I'm not picking on anyone, not even the Kippley's here. I'm just analysing why this happens.
__________________
Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
LisaR
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2226
|
| Posted: Sept 28 2007 at 7:47pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Lisbet wrote:
| My thoughts on posting this thread were to discuss the impact that promoting breastfeeding to space babies has had on us moms of many. It was interesting to me how John Kipply (excuse my mistake in an earlier post, for some reason I thought I read that his wife wrote the article.) states that maybe promoting ecological breastfeeding as an ethical way to space babies could have eased 'pressure' on Catholic mothers of many at that time. |
|
|
ok, this makes sense. and in this instance, for the most part, I then could say I "agree" with John Kippley.
My mom was hospitalized with severe Post Partum phychosis after having 3 kids under the age of three. It has now been proven that the oxytocin and prolactin released in nursing women can help many (not all, but a large percentage) have less severe , reduce, or even eliminate Post partum issues.
interestingly, studies show that the link to postpartum depression, phychosis, and that spectrum of disorders is closely linked to the return to fertility.
So, in conclusion, non breastfeeding mothers possibly DID indeed feel undue pressure or stress or depression- directly related to the absence of the "feel good hormones" that are released during lactation!
I am all for talking up breastfeeding- why not teach the physiology of it- that it can and does indeed space babies- whether it be 4 months postpartum or 4 years!
I do not think that by talking up nursing and how it naturally aids in amennorhea it somehow diminishes or reduces the support/encouragement/beauty of the large family...
and with that I promise I am done 
the men are in from working on our holey roof! and hungry!!!
__________________
Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Martha
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 25 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2291
|
| Posted: Sept 28 2007 at 8:45pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
oh my. anger? well I didn't feel any anger and didn't read any in Lisbet either, so I was thoroughly tossed in the black when I read your last 2 posts Lisa! 
Well for the record, I'm torn most days between anger and frustration in general lately.
hmm, I finally figured out what you mean by connected providentialist and holistic. (I was sitting here thinking, "huh? You can't get more natural than bf-ing and leaving it up to God?!)
Problem is, those things are not dependent on each other. I have "done it all" at this point. Every one of my children has had different needs and I have done the best I could to meet those needs. How they were fed had nothing to do with how feel about having more children. I've had a child I couldn't bf at all, most have been exclusively bf until they self-weaned, and everywhere in between that spectrum. I don't bf to avoid children, so to me, this is a completely seperate issue.
Because of that, I can understand why many mothers would see nothing wrong with giving a bottle/paci. It's a seperate issue for them. Frankly, I don't understand why you seem to think that's wrong?
oh I posted much more, but I'm going to delete it, jsut to be on the safe side.
I agree with Lisbet. Big surprise there. I don't think this would have changed my mother's attitude. My mother had 3 kids each 10 months apart, then me 10 years later. To quote her, "God MUST have wanted you, because I sure as h*** didn't!" Yes, my mother had difficult pregnancies and recovers and, generally, a difficult life. Obviously NFP would have prevented some of her troubles.  But that misses the point. That isn't easing pressure. It's just removing future babies from the picture.
What would have eased the pressure? Again, I agree with Lisbet. If my mother had softened her heart and lovingly accepted God's will, where would the pressure have been from? The assumption is that the pressure is external, but it's internal.
It's very difficult to explain. All I can say is that a world of pressure and stress was lifted off my shoulders the day we said we'd leave the choice of life up to God and threw away that NFP book.
__________________
Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
Yes, they're all ours!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Rachel May
Forum All-Star
Joined: June 24 2005
Location: Kansas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2057
|
| Posted: Sept 29 2007 at 9:54am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Was it only yesterday this thread started? I'm a slow thinker, and you have all said so much already, please excuse me if I derail this a bit, but I did want to add my perspective.
Lisbet wrote:
| Do we have a moral obligation to breastfeed? |
|
|
What I thought most about from the article was the flip side of the above question. "Is it immoral not to breastfeed?" And "Must we ecologically breastfeed?" And "What part of God's plan for my salvation might come from me breastfeeding ecologically?"
We have always been Babywise parents. I don't think we would have survived the twins without it! Even though I don't see us as being "hardcore"--we are certainly more flexible than the book would lead you to believe a schedule parent should be--I know that we are at a disconnect from ecological breastfeeding.
I've always "left behind" (in the LLL sense) the ecological breastfeeding that I felt was not helpful to me. I took care to read Sheila Kippley's book, am incensed at any material at the OB that says that ecological breastfeeding doesn't work to space babies but has no explanation of what it is or how it could work etc, and then I go ahead and schedule feed my kids (in general totally breastfeeding but some have had bottles too) and almost NEVER cosleep because, UGH UGH UGH, physically it is repulsive to me.
Now, reading this article made me wonder whether am I sacrificing enough of myself as a mother and whether it is immoral of me to parent this way. My schedule serves my family, but primarily it serves ME. Not sleeping with the baby in my bed or even my room serves both my husband and ME. Not being at the constant physical beck and call of this little human defintely serves ME. I feel like maybe there is a little too much of ME in this equation. Is God calling me to relook at my own plan WRT breastfeeding and to move away from some of my selfishness and towards greater generosity of myself? Is it immoral of me to not consider ecological breastfeeding?
On the other side is the question of truly how much can I sacrifice without losing my mind. I feel like I walk a fine line. IMhO, mothers with lots of little ones live in an unbalanced world, and we have to be vigilant about balancing the needs of so many people with our own needs. I'm sort of trying to figure out if I need too much.
__________________
Rachel
Thomas and Anthony (10), Maria (8), Charles (6), Cecilia (5), James (3), and Joseph (1)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Martha
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 25 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2291
|
| Posted: Sept 29 2007 at 10:16am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Rachel May wrote:
I feel like maybe there is a little too much of ME in this equation. Is God calling me to relook at my own plan WRT breastfeeding and to move away from some of my selfishness and towards greater generosity of myself? Is it immoral of me to not consider ecological breastfeeding?
IMhO, mothers with lots of little ones live in an unbalanced world, and we have to be vigilant about balancing the needs of so many people with our own needs. |
|
|
Again, it's about perspective and the NEEDS of the family/child.
I eco bf because it's easiest for ME. They sleep in the bed because it's easier for ME. I conform to the baby schedule because it's easier for ME than forcing an artificial schedule on them. I don't give bottles/pacis because it's easier for ME not to have one more thing to clean and carry. That said, if the baby slept better in their own bed, then by goodness I wouldn't feel a lick of guilt putting them there. And yes, some babies do sleep better on their own! One would scream and kick all night in our beds. Frankly, he felt we took up too much of his space. Same goes for a bottle. My milk didn't come until another was 7 days old and by then he wanted no part of any breast despite my desperate attempts to avoid cleaning bottles for the next year. I also have a sensory issues child who desperately needs routine and schedule, whether I want to fly by my pants or not, this is the easiest thing to ddo for ME. Fighting their needs is too hard for ME!
I don't consider my life unbalanced. I figure the day will come when I can sleep in because the house is silent and empty and there's no messes to clean up. These days of littles will balance out with those days way before I'm ready for it. 
__________________
Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
Yes, they're all ours!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
msclavel
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 26 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 781
|
| Posted: Sept 29 2007 at 11:53am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Rachel May wrote:
Now, reading this article made me wonder whether am I sacrificing enough of myself as a mother and whether it is immoral of me to parent this way. My schedule serves my family, but primarily it serves ME. Not sleeping with the baby in my bed or even my room serves both my husband and ME. Not being at the constant physical beck and call of this little human defintely serves ME. I feel like maybe there is a little too much of ME in this equation. Is God calling me to relook at my own plan WRT breastfeeding and to move away from some of my selfishness and towards greater generosity of myself? Is it immoral of me to not consider ecological breastfeeding?
On the other side is the question of truly how much can I sacrifice without losing my mind. I feel like I walk a fine line. IMhO, mothers with lots of little ones live in an unbalanced world, and we have to be vigilant about balancing the needs of so many people with our own needs. I'm sort of trying to figure out if I need too much. |
|
|
Wow, Rachel I was so impressed/touched by your asking yourself these probing questions. I have breastfed, bottlefed, paci, no paci, never used a cloth diaper...all kind of configurations with all my children. With my last four children, I have completely breastfed, though I don't think I follow the Kippley's rules (don't really know what they are). Babies sleep in the bed with me for about the first 2 months, and then in the room until just over year. I never use a bottle, which means for about the first year and a half of my babies lives, they are with me, all the time. My Agnes is one today and so attached to me. I'm relishing every minute of it. But she started sleeping in another room months ago. Why? Because I knew my husband and I needed it. We needed that room to be "ours" for at least most of the night. It was good for our marriage. I still tuck her in bed with me every morning to snooze and nurse.
It is all about balance. And I know there are many times when I fail to find it . Thank God for His grace.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
mary theresa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Nov 08 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 766
|
| Posted: Sept 29 2007 at 1:46pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I totally should not be posting here! Sorry!
But I just learn so much from you moms of many by eavesropping on your conversations. 
My only little thing I wanted to say was that it was the attitude -- primarily seen in the Kippleys and the CCL -- of:
Ecological breastfeeding spaces babies.
Spacing babies is good/desirable/better.
Therefore Ec-bfing is good/desirable/better
-- is what initally turned me off from ec bfing in general.
I never knew anything about ec. bfing b4 I was engaged. My mom always schedule-breastfed till the child was around 1.5yo. That's what I knew about how to bf -- I thought everyone did it like that. So the CCL was not convincing me of WHY ec bfing was better because their MAIN argument for it seems to be "it spaces babies."
Well, if I'm gonna ec bf I want to do it because it is intrinsically better for the baby and not because it will stop my fertility.
I mean, they do say some other stuff about bonding, etc., but they always come right back to "oh and it spaces babies" as if that settles the issue.
I guess for most of your run-of-the-mill ppl out their who the CCL are trying to reach "it spaces babies" would clinch it, b/c it might ? be fair to say that most women get overwhelmed at the thought of a baby a year.
I guess I'm just saying that ec bfing (as opposed to just regular breastfeeing) needs to be marketed (I can't think of the right word) on ITS OWN merits, not the merits of child spacing in order to carry more weight -- for someone like me.
Anyways, I'm rambling AND not supposed to be here -- good combo!
Carry on -- sorry for interrupting!
__________________
Mary Theresa
mother to 3 little girls --March '06, Dec '07 and Jan '10
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
mary theresa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Nov 08 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 766
|
| Posted: Sept 29 2007 at 1:49pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Rachel May, your post spoke to me -- thank you so much!
__________________
Mary Theresa
mother to 3 little girls --March '06, Dec '07 and Jan '10
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Martha
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 25 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2291
|
| Posted: Sept 29 2007 at 2:53pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
mary theresa wrote:
| ec bfing (as opposed to just regular breastfeeing) needs to be marketed (I can't think of the right word) on ITS OWN merits, not the merits of child spacing in order to carry more weight -- for someone like me. |
|
|
 Exactly. For that matter, it needs to be pointed out that ecological bf-ing is the regular form of bf-ing. Any other method is adding something or some trait that is not naturally a part of bf-ing.
Now, before anyone jumps on me for saying they may being doing a less natural method of bf-ing (ducking tomatoes as I type!)...
I want to point out that there's nothing more natural for a mother to do than what is right and good and needed for her baby and only that mother knows if that baby needs for some other thing or method added to meet their needs.
__________________
Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
Yes, they're all ours!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
mrsgranola
Forum Pro
Joined: Feb 17 2005
Location: North Carolina
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 442
|
| Posted: Sept 29 2007 at 3:31pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Martha wrote:
mary theresa wrote:
| ec bfing (as opposed to just regular breastfeeding) needs to be marketed (I can't think of the right word) on ITS OWN merits, not the merits of child spacing in order to carry more weight -- for someone like me. |
|
|
Exactly. For that matter, it needs to be pointed out that ecological bf-ing is the regular form of bf-ing. Any other method is adding something or some trait that is not naturally a part of bf-ing.
Now, before anyone jumps on me for saying they may being doing a less natural method of bf-ing (ducking tomatoes as I type!)...
I want to point out that there's nothing more natural for a mother to do than what is right and good and needed for her baby and only that mother knows if that baby needs for some other thing or method added to meet their needs. |
|
|
I think the above quotes from both Mary Theresa and Martha sum up my thoughts on this thread.
I closely relate to LisaR's point of view because I've been there in the "counselor's" position on NFP and, more often, breastfeeding. If you're having to talk to the mainstream Catholic ( or non-Catholic) about NFP or breastfeeding, you're likely to gravitate to the position that you try to get across what you think they may better receive and actually put into practice... then hope and pray that their hearts will be softened. There are other good reasons to "ecological" breastfeed besides spacing your babies. It's just that spacing babies (for the good of the mother's health or whatever you want to put out there) is more likely to get the mainstream couple's attention and keep it LONG ENOUGH to get to them hearing the other benefits and again, try to soften their hearts.
I hope I'm making sense. Our group of ladies on this board are much out of the mainstream on their thinking about the blessings of children, Alleluia!
JoAnna, more when I can later...
__________________
Mom to Jacob, Grace, Mary, Lucas, Emma, Carrie and Gianna
Parente Adventures
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Nina Murphy
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 18 2006
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1546
|
| Posted: Oct 10 2007 at 11:56pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I just wanted to jump in although I am too sick to get into things, but my legs are FRIGHTENING looking and because I do not want to offend anyone, I won't say what the REALLY frightening results have been of my many pregnancies. (Everyone: please have a sense of humor about that comment. ;D)
But I can not imagine life without each one of these souls. They have "cost" A LOT....but ultimately, it won't matter. I won't care. Believe me, I *oughtn't* in many people's opinion, have conceived and carried the majority of them. They are total miracles of grace---that I have gotten through it, and raised them to this beautiful, brilliant point. (I'm not biased.) It has not been through my power.
I always recover; I always move on, even with my war-wounds. Why look back? Why say: what if? Okay, so my life could have been different, my health different. These miracles of mine that every day I can't believe I've had.....they are eternally precious and will be giving back to me and the world (and ultimately God) in ways I can not foresee or pre-measure.
__________________
God bless,
~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Maria B.
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 16 2006
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 544
|
| Posted: Oct 11 2007 at 12:02am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Very beautiful Nina.
Bless you,
__________________
Maria in VA
Proud Mom to 10 Great kids!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
LisaR
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2226
|
| Posted: Oct 11 2007 at 8:10am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I think John's intent- and many others who try to promote breastfeeding was:
1. to show historically that nature/God intended it to have the secondary effect of spacing babies. (length of spacing varies widely ). I will say it again: if we REALLY wanted to have children as God Wills, why are not more of us breastfeeding as God Wills?? It is clearly defined in Scripture and in Anthropology that it is 3 years. (I am including myself on this- I do not nurse for more than about 18 mo) Are we "cafeteria Catholics" on this issue? Popes have even written on Nursing throughout the centuries. It seems that there is a disconnect.....and something that I have read and studied up on for years- fascinating!
2. maybe we would not have the Catholic grandma's and moms nowadays ENCOURAGING their daughters to get sterilized/only have two kids because of their own experience in the early 1900's (mass advent of the bottle) to the 1960's (mass advent of the Pill) - many of them were overwhelmed with having lots of little ones spaced very close together. They then turned to the pill as the "Catholic Answer" (yes there was a short time even in the '60's when the CATHOLIC developed Pill was widely advertised as the answer!) when they needed to just point themselves and their daughters/granddaughters back to breastfeeding!!
The moms of the early 1900's looked back to their own Mothers and Grandmothers- and wondered why it was "easier" for them. Well, they were nursing, and also living in a more communal extended family society. In the 1800's on back to Biblical Times, extended family lived with you/very near you, with lots of older aunts,grandmas, mothers to help with the "home", and the little ones.
Fast forward to the 1900's, the moms are starting to live "alone" away from the family farm/family business society, and are bottle feeding for "convienence". They are wondering "why is this HARDER"??? so they pass on the FALSE teaching to their daughters/grandaughters- "you do not want to end up like me" just get on the Pill....
__________________
Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
hopalenik
Forum Pro
Joined: Nov 17 2006
Location: Connecticut
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 230
|
| Posted: Oct 11 2007 at 7:51pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Hi,
I have always had many extremely negative and extremely positive thoughts about the Kippleys. I did not practice NFP properly in the moral sense with my first child and then I was working full time and did not really pay attention to things and walla-twins were conceieved. Now I was very secular and was quite unhappy with the thought of 3 kids under 22 months. So God humbled me by giving me three kids under 20 months with one of htem having profound health issues. So I pulled out the NFP manual to read up. I nearly gave up my Catholicism-as heretical as it was right then and there! But God had a better plan-I couldn't take the pill even if I wanted to because I was nursing a baby in end stage renal failure and he couldn't take formula-except for one kind that cost about $40 a can. So I nursed and was forced to really attempt to follow the NFP ecological breastfeeding model. Another pregnancy was not an option at the time because I spent about 10 hours a day medicating, or otherwise doing medical things to my twins in order just to keep them alive-my poor 2 year old was totally neglected that year.
We determined when the twins were about 1 that I was going to donate my kidney to my son. But I was very confused about whether my fertility was returning at the moment, and the Children's hospital refused to do the workup for the transplant-unless I could guarentee that I would not get pregnant (this is understandable to some degree because the time and cost involved). When I called CCL central and spoke to the main person at the time, I could have KILLED HIM. I have never in my life been so absolutely humiliated. I was explaining to him that I had twins-who I had literally given up sleeping in order to keep them nursing. When my son eventually became so sick and so near death in his renal failure that he went into complete oral shutdown and would not let anything near his mouth, I pumped night and day to give him breastmilk down his feeding tube. I think that I did all that was absolutely humanly possible to do, to keep this kid alive and the CCL counselor humiliated me because Josh was not nursing. So I asked if we could figure out potentially fertility return just based on Nadia nursing but he refused and said there was no hope...my fertility would come back any day now. So we abstained in entirety for 5 months. 4 months before the donation and at least one month later. After my surgery, I ended up nursing his twin again for another year but my fertility was really bizarre and the local couple asked me to call central again. I got the same guy and he was as appalling as ever. It was all my fault because she was not in bed, or I didn't get enough sleep or...
I was so livid, that I burned the stupid book. I was lived, at the absolute black and white world which CCL painted ecological breastfeeding and how guilty they made me feel. However, I have to thank them in the end. I needed the 3 1/2 spacing between the twins and my Tegan (although part of that was due to a miscarriage too.) I was so overwhelmed and we had to fight so hard to get Josh to a status where he is healthy and off all medical tubage.
I have forgiven CCL and I do think that it is a good ministry but everything in this world is imperfect even those who are trying to bring back truth and morality to society and the church. For us to expect that the Kipplley's or CCL would not have words that can offend us or are hurtful is unrealistic. But I definetely believe that they do need to tone their rhetoric down a bit.
Holly
I have to give up typing now because the nursing 15 month old is killing my back.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
LisaR
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2226
|
| Posted: Oct 11 2007 at 8:21pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Holly, just to let you know, the Kippley's and many of the "counselors" are NOT a part of CCL anymore. Because of the reasons you stated above. We are CCL instructors that nearly quit many a time over differences of opinion with the Kippleys. I would like to personally apologize if you were hurt in any way. Please do not think that this is a representation of all of us. Just as a person who has a horrible experience with a Priest- I would BEG them not to think all priests were like that! I am almost certain that I know who you spoke with and he is not there anymore.
However, on the issue of the lack of breastfeeding POSSIBLY being a factor to babies spaced very close together and mom being overwhelmed in the early 1900's-up until now., I would have to agree. An example sociologically of how women believed the "lie" that they would be happier bottlefeeding - moms were told that only the poor or uneducated breastfed. I am sure that some of those moms who were depressed as John Kippley states were depressed due to not nursing, among other things. We were created to nurse our young...
__________________
Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
hopalenik
Forum Pro
Joined: Nov 17 2006
Location: Connecticut
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 230
|
| Posted: Oct 11 2007 at 9:50pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Thank you Lisa.
I agree with most of what the Kippleys have stated. I do believe that ecologically breastfeeding by their rules can space children and leave a mom some breathing room. I also however, have a profound respect for those moms who just completely trust in God and have huge families in response.
As I said, I no longer harbor the angry feelings that I once did. I do have a deep, respect for the Kippleys and all that they have began. I also, as one who tends to speak rather aggresively, can understand that someone with passionate feelings can be too forceful and overwhelm those who are listening. I still send my money to CCL and I could tell that things had changed in the past year or so. But had I not become allergic to latex during the time after my twins were born, we would most certainly have ditched NFP and contracepted because of the response that I recieved. My individual counselors in Chicago were all in all wonderful. But I can definitely understand when individuals feel insulted by some of their written materials.
I also, wanted to add that I have felt the judgement coming down on all three sides of the fences. I know that my secular or heretical friends and family think we are insane for having 5 kids. I have felt pressured by devout friends to have my children closer together, and I have had devout Catholics who use ecological breastfeeding effectively -call me the Mom with all those kids so close together. I have come to believe that that is just the result of our sinful human nature and I am learning to let it roll off my back. Only God knows if we have sinned or not in spacing our kids, and only God knows if I have been to selfish in my decisions to breastfeed for the time that I have. But unfortunately, I have seen some Blogs calling out Moms who breastfeed to long as contraceptive and Blogs calling out Moms who have their babies too rapidly as not properly nurturing each individual one. We all need to be careful not to rush to judge each other, and prayfully assume that if one is in a state of grace that they are making the appropriate decisions for thier individual families. As Pope John Paul said, families become who you are meant to be.
Holly
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Nina Murphy
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 18 2006
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1546
|
| Posted: Oct 11 2007 at 11:45pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
That last paragraph had me nodding, Holly. That quote of our late Holy Father is one of my favorites ever.
I am so sorry for your pain. You have been asked to carry heavy crosses. You are very brave. Thank you for writing!
These mothering/reproductive issues are SO difficult, aren't they. They are not a light matter. And we all get very emotional about what we have experienced and seen and been impressed with.
I for one, have such anti-large family sentiments in my ancestral line that I have become a bit defensive about any pressure at all (esp. from Catholics) that it is our responsibility to plan our families. But I guess that is a bit reactionary. Aristotle said virtue is the mean between two extremes. We need to stay level-headed and realize, like you said, that people ARE struggling deeply. I don't think it is simplistic for any good God-fearing woman; we all want to do what is "right" and what will lead to peace. And God will lead us if we pray. We do not all have to follow the same b-feeding path.
__________________
God bless,
~~Nina
mother of 9 on earth,
and 2 yet-to-be-met
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Rachel May
Forum All-Star
Joined: June 24 2005
Location: Kansas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2057
|
| Posted: Oct 12 2007 at 8:30am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Lisa,
Would you share some of the resources you've studied and read about the Church's teachings on breastfeeding? I can't say that the "they did it in the Bible" holds much water with me since they also cooked over open fires and lived in tents. These were things based on a historical time and place and are not necessarily what we are called to do. They are things that are morally neutral. However, I would love to read the teachings of the Church to clarify the "morality" of extended breastfeeding. Any pointers?
__________________
Rachel
Thomas and Anthony (10), Maria (8), Charles (6), Cecilia (5), James (3), and Joseph (1)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
LisaR
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2226
|
| Posted: Oct 12 2007 at 8:45am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Rachel May wrote:
Lisa,
Would you share some of the resources you've studied and read about the Church's teachings on breastfeeding? I can't say that the "they did it in the Bible" holds much water with me since they also cooked over open fires and lived in tents. These were things based on a historical time and place and are not necessarily what we are called to do. They are things that are morally neutral. However, I would love to read the teachings of the Church to clarify the "morality" of extended breastfeeding. Any pointers? |
|
|
One big difference is that nursing was something coming from the body- to nourish a child, much different than how one cooks food, or if one sleeps in a tent or a 4 walled home- those are externals. Children were dedicated in the temple were dedicated at 3, when they weaned. Samuel was nursed til three. Mary, etc.
There are quite a few references of Popes writing about our calling as Catholic mothers to nurse, throughout the centuries, and ending with Pope John Paul II most recently. Fr William Virtue wrote a book about 10 years ago about morality and breastfeeding, however I have passed it, and my "collection" around frequently, I would have to do a search to find it now, and I do not have time.
We were created to have babies, and to nurture those babies at our bre*st. Those two go hand in hand, and is not really morally "neutral" if we are really looking at using our bodies the way God willed us to by nature of the way he created us. (however, it is understood that some mothers simply cannot nurse, but that does not negate the "norm")
I think it is so awesome the way we were made! The connection between breastfeeding, and for most, a natural time of infertility (whether it be 3 months or 3 years) to allow our bodies to recover from childbirth, and to give our bodies the strength to nurture a new little one outside the womb for a time instead of a pregnancy!
There is a fairly new website
specifically addressing Catholics and Breastfeeding. I'll post it if I find it.
However, this break from the 4real boards has been so great for our family. I am rededicated to focusing my energy elsewhere but here so it might be awhile!
__________________
Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
LisaR
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2226
|
| Posted: Oct 12 2007 at 8:49am | IP Logged
|
|
|
www.catholicbreastfeeding.org
is the website, however,I did not find as many resources there as I would like at first glance.
__________________
Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: NFP and Breastfeeding
