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JennGM
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My statement above was about the RE programs in general, not just about homeschoolers fitting into CCD.
I agree with Matilda's statement. The main problem with the blog post linked above is that the DRE has her hierarchy all wrong. Parents are the primary educators. A Religious Education program should be only to ASSIST the parents. As parents we temporarily loan our authority when we give our child to another teacher. But unfortunately we have whole generations who don't know their Faith. In your statements you are leaving out in the cold the larger percentile of Catholic families who do NOT homeschool, who do not teach their child their faith in the home. What are they to do? Are these children just to be lost souls?
Again, I am just going to stress that we should not make sweeping statements of the state of CCD. Each parish, with their pastor and DRE should be judged individually, after approaching them in charity. Like it was said before, we can attract more with honey than vinegar.
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Martha
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I agree with Red AND Jenn.
In Red's situation, I completely and totally agree with her stance. That's very much how I feel about it.
And Jenn is right too. We can't presume every situation is like that and as we do not live in an ideal world, there is a valid need for RE programs to ASSIST some parents in the formation of catechism for their children. If for no other reason than many a RCIA candidate would need such assistance with their own children at least for a time.
Also, RE is to ASSIST parents. Which means a parent should have the option of refusing that assistance without their child sufferring penalties for being well taught at home.
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LisaR
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Quote:
| Oh BTW, Lisa, the test is not for Confirmation prep it is for all CCD of our diocese. They will administer it at three different ages. So says our handy dandy DRE!....Ohhhhh the days when a priest use to run a parish and a Bishop a diocese!!! |
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yes, but this is NOT a "requirement" to receive any sacrament, nor is it "mandated" by the Bishop. It is very easy to not take the test. In fact, there is quite a large population who do not.
and, there is nothing about date rape in it.
(from what I can tell, someone read through the tests)
I know we have a "Terra Nova" test here in the Diocese. no harm in not taking it. and, it is also totally anonymous anyway- they want it for "statistical" reasons so as to see how much of what I don't know these kids know or don't know.
and how THAT makes sense I don't know!
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MicheleQ
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Tami wrote:
| With the next child, it will be confirmation via RCIA. In the same parish where the one child had a horrible experience, the RCIA program is very, very good! He'll be confirmed that way. And he's at peace with that, actually - he'd prefer a mature discussion of the faith. |
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I had a young lady come through RCIA for confirmation last year because for various reasons - mainly family issues, she couldn't attend CCD. It's not ideal and I don't prefer it but it worked out OK. I did require one of her parents to be with her and during the more mature discussions of morality issues he dad came without her and then presented the information to her as he saw fit.
Still, her presence stifled conversation somewhat as some of the adult members told me they felt uncomfortable asking questions of a more "mature" nature with her present. A big side benefit though was that her Dad (a lifelong Catholic) told us he learned A LOT that year (you know, all the stuff he didn't know he didn't know!) and was really glad he had come!
All that is good but it shows what a lack of catechesis there is and has been and we can see why there's a temptation to use RCIA (if it's a good one) for adult catechesis even though we should not.
I work for my parish too and I completely agree that we need to approach all of this with kindness but like many have stated here, there's NO WAY I will put my kids in CCD. Even if they were using a good program (they use something very "light"), there are some very nice but very confused and poorly formed people teaching those classes. Never mind that if I wanted my children regularly exposed to the public school culture I would have them in public school. 
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LisaR
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I went through RCIA in High School, and it was awkward all around. although at the time I thought I was so mature LOL, some felt like they could not freely discuss matters.
I do again think it is neat how some homeschool moms banded together and "took over" teaching CCD. Again, not for everyone, but there was strength in numbers and it was amazing the fruit that came from it.
My kids are in Sports, and Scouts, that expose them to the "school culture" in small doses.
I feel ok with Family Formation, the content is excellent and orthodox, and it is 90 min per month for 9 months, FAR less than the time we spend on sports and scouts. (plus for at least some of it we are together as a family anyway, so the exposure time is limited)
The jist of this post I suppose practically speaking is a plug for FAMILY based catechesis, which of course we already do, but this particular program is a superb bridge to reach out to the "average population" and to help them see that yes, they ARE the primary educators of their kids and yes, they CAN teach their own children about the faith!!
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chicken lady
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LisaR wrote:
yes, but this is NOT a "requirement" to receive any sacrament, nor is it "mandated" by the Bishop. It is very easy to not take the test.
and, there is nothing about date rape in it.
(from what I can tell, someone read through the tests)
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I am sorry Lisa but you are misinformed, I have know idea what test you had read to you, nor do I have any idea who you spoke with, but our DRE has something VERY different to say. I am CERTAIN that al the parents attending that meeting with our DRE is not imagining this mandate or question. Since your curiousity seems overwhemling concerning my diocese, I will try to find the copy of the test and privately mail it to you. As for calling me a liar on a public forum, most uncharitable. Quite frnakly you don't live here, you spoke (for some odd reason) with some unknown person form the diocesan office who quite frankly is not speaking the same language as our DRE. I certainly hope you are corect and our DRE wrong. Either way, I am confused by your over zealous need to canonize DREs. I am certain TIm does a great job, but there are real and valid reasons some Catholics object to lay people taking over parishs. If for no other reason, this conversation, we should be able to get a direct answer from our local priest or Bishop. I would appreciate your leaving me and my diocese out of your post until you have all the information. I pray last weeks meeting caused enough waves as to chaged the mandate, I have yet to hear this locally.
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LisaR
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Oh Molly, I am sorry, we had calls about this from others. I just wanted to check for myself, as it does no good to spread things from what the DRE or even the Priest is saying if that indeed is not really and truly what the Bishop desires. We can go around in circles with DREs, which I think we all have agreed some might not have it all together.
The Office of Catechetics did encourage you or any other concerned person (and I never used names, parishes, homeschooling, or any identifiers) to call them to get the honest, true "official" stance on the test, or any other matter.
It is scandalous to spread things on a National forum about a Bishop mandating something when in fact it was coming from what might be a very misinformed DRE.
I do not want to canonize anyone. I never said anyone was Saintly so I do not know where that came from.
I just wanted the truth as we all do.
We do still have very close ties with many in the Diocese, Tim works with quite a few at University, Diocescan, as well as ordinary Parishoners levels.
Let us all pray for Our Holy Mother Church and all of Her Members!
Peace of Christ,
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LisaR
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bottom line: in any Diocese, if a DRE or anyone else says you must take a test of any sort to attend CCD, Rel Ed, RCIA, or receive ANY Sacrament, please know that they are misinformed in some way and that it CAN be cleared up.
You or your child do not need to ever take any sort of test.
and now, I am honestly and truly (I promise!! ) going to withdraw from this conversation/
Peace of Christ
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rivendellmom
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When I started reading this thread I had only talked to the DRE of our former Parish a couple times. We are now in our new Parish (the first in the arch of chicago in 10 years!)and I am assisting our Pastor in building a CCD program from the ground up. We won't even know until next week how many kids we have signed up. Anyway, he sent me to a meeting of all the DRE's in our vicciarate. It was an eye opening experience. They are a struggling bunch of people with a heartbreaking job. Some parish's have 3000 kids in ccd- they know only 10 percent go to Mass. They spoke of how even if you can get some faith training through to the kids, the parents won't take them to Mass.
The Bishop that spoke to us said that while we obviously have a chance to educate the children- we really need to teach adults the catachism- and that isn't going to happen...
There were a couple of DRE's that fit my stereotype including a nun that spoke of priests as if they were all holding her back :(
But, most of the people I met were honestly comparing notes and trying to get through to these kids in an hour a week. They were all very helpful to me and I went back to Father with some good ideas for our new Parish.
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Martha
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Yes, I agree with Lisa there.
Bottom line, a DRE has zero power to make anyone do anything, they can talk all they want to the contrary, but canon says NO sacrament can be denied to a person properly disposed to receive it and such things as tests, retreats, and so forth are not required to be deemed "properly disposed".
If every DRE had the attitude of "I'm here to assist you. Here's what I'm able to do in that area."
and every parent had an attitude of "I'm going to see to it that my child is well prepared and I will meet with the DRE to make sure all the basic requirements needed to be prepared are met before we interview with the priest."
then I think this thread wouldn't be neccessary.
From the parent perspective, the problem comes when DREs start spouting things as neccessary that indeed are not. If, for example, they say the child should know certain prayers or be able to reference certain areas of the CCC or be able to define what confirmation is - those are certainly to be expected and understood. To say my child must go on a retreat is false. To say my child must do blank amount of service hours with the youth group is false.
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JennGM
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Moderator Hat on:
Molly and Lisa,
Your discussion deals with a matter in veiled terms and confusing to other readers. Because it is a local and personal matter that is not of general interest on an international forum, please continue any discussion privately.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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LisaR
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sorry everyone! I am done!
Peace of Christ,
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Lisa
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Elizabeth
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MicheleQ wrote:
I work for my parish too and I completely agree that we need to approach all of this with kindness but like many have stated here, there's NO WAY I will put my kids in CCD. Even if they were using a good program (they use something very "light"), there are some very nice but very confused and poorly formed people teaching those classes. Never mind that if I wanted my children regularly exposed to the public school culture I would have them in public school.
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I think this is the point that the blogger (Daughter of the King) misses. Well said, Michele. And you have the experience and the authority to say it.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Martha
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I love this quote from the CAF forum on the whole "community" and "being an example to others" reason for doing CCD.
Quote:
| As far as my son being a mentor/de facto sponsor, I am all for him doing that, but even the apostles huddled fearful in a room until given the gifts of the Holy Spirit, do I expect more from 15 year old boy 2000 years later in a room with some who are hostile to the faith? |
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It shows a lack of understanding for what confirmation is when they say things like we should have our dc there to be examples. Confirmation is what gives them the perfection (as in whole or conplete) in strength to be soldiers for Christ and we really shouldn't expect such of them before they receive the graces to do so.
Of course, this would be solved if they received confirmation at baptism or right before FHC. 
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I've just read this entire thread with great interest. We moved a month ago from the Arlington Diocese, and dh and I are saddened by what we've seen in our new diocese. We've decided to drive 1.5 hours to a Latin Mass community every Sunday.
While I heartily agree with Jenn that we need to pray for RE everywhere, Red has voiced my thoughts exactly. Dh and I -- not a DRE, however well-meaning -- are the ones who will be held eternally accountable for the souls of our children.
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MicheleQ
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rivendellmom wrote:
They spoke of how even if you can get some faith training through to the kids, the parents won't take them to Mass.
The Bishop that spoke to us said that while we obviously have a chance to educate the children- we really need to teach adults the catachism- and that isn't going to happen... |
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Ah, THIS is the crux of the issue. If parishes put as much money and effort into adult catechesis and RCIA programs as they do CCD and started requiring ADULTS to come, CCD would not be needed! I know that sounds radical to some but it's true. The fact is that parishes spend most of their money and efforts focusing on educating the children when in fact if they educated the adults it would have a trickle down effect. Most parents are good willed. They put their kids in CCD because they want them to learn about the Faith and many of those same parents THINK they know their Faith but the fact is they don't know what they don't know. I was that kind of Catholic for years. I thought I knew what it meant to be Catholic - I didn't. I know a lot of you here can relate to what I am saying.
I highly recommend volunteering in your parish --though I do think every family needs to discern when and how and IF it's the right season for them to do so -- but my recommendation would be to work at getting the adults in the parish in some kind of catechesis. We need to evangelize our parishes (really!) and start with the people in the pews! You'll need the support of your pastor for it to truly be successful, but I think most priests already recognize this as a primary issue . . . at least the ones I have talked to do.
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mimmyof5
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When I made my post I wanted to make it clear that these issues were particular to our parish. When I've spoken to our priest, it appears to me he has handed the entire job of religious education over to the laity, our hired DRE's and the volunteers. Of course he is present during staff meetings, and I actually have no idea how involved he is behind the scenes, so to speak. Some years ago when a homeschooling family asked about First Communion for their child, the answer was something like 'I don't have the time to deal with homeschoolers'. This was from our priest. Right now I only know of two homeschooling families in our parish. It's been made clear they don't want to make exceptions, such as exempting someone from the retreat, because then everyone will be expecting special treatment.
However, across town our friend has had no problem with having her children receive the sacraments without being involved with RE at all. So it appears it's not even Diocesan policy but left up to the individual parishes.
I have heard of many wonderful Catholic parishes across the country. What I would give to live in one of those. But I don't. I trusted our RE programs and was sorely disappointed. I guess I abdicated my parental authority and handed it over to another person, which we should never do, even if the other person is an employee of our church.
As parents we have to deal with the location and problems specific to that location as we see fit. When some of us choose not to participate in our parishes' RE programs, I think we are truly, with a lot of prayer, trying to do the right thing for our children. I am not snubbing our parish. They do try, very hard. But my children are not mainstream children - that's another fact I needed to get into my head. They are different because they have been raised differently, very differently from most families I know, even at church. They have different needs, and what the parish gives is not what my children need. I realize that for a lot of others' children, the parish program is step up from what they encounter everyday.
I'm afraid that sounds very snobbish, but I truly don't mean it that way. I respect our priests and the laity that are trying to fill all the jobs that are needed to keep the parish running. I truly wouldn't want their job - raising my own takes more than 24 hrs in a day it seems. And I don't want to be too critical since I'm not stepping up to the plate in this area.
In an ideal world maybe we wouldn't need DRE's. In an ideal world DRE's and parents could work together in the best interest of their children. So far, I haven't found this to be an ideal world.
Peace,
Janet
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Mary G
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OK, guys -- with my moderator cap on, I'd like to say that now that we've discussed this thread from every possible position, we need to move on to homeschooling our kids ....
Thanks for all the wonderful input and suggestions. It got a bit heated at times, but that's what happens in a community of passionate folks.
We're so glad that Donna was able to work with the DRE and since the original point of this post has been concluded, let's go ahead and conclude this topic, ok?
Blessings to one and all
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Red Cardigan
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With respect for Mary G.'s wish that this conversation be ended as far as the Real Learning forum is concerned, I'd like to invite anyone who still wants to share experiences, discuss this further, or even just vent to do so at my blog, since I posted about this issue late yesterday.
Peace!
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lambchopwife
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I have not had time to read through everyone's post.  Here is a suggestion, you might contact the St. Joseph foundation, they are a bunch of cannon law lawyers who will help you free of charge(for asking simple questions).We got some help from them a few years ago about not having to send our son to CCD class. They are very helpful about these issues and are very homeschool friendly! I just want to add that they are free for some things, but do ask for donations if possible.
Cheryl
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Mandatory CCD? UPDATE on pg4
