| Author | |
PDyer
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 25 2005
Location: Ohio
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1043
|
| Posted: Aug 28 2007 at 12:32pm | IP Logged
|
 |
|
Matilda wrote:
| You know the argument that these people throw at you about how you have to trust God and believe that he will provide everything you need including a medical miracle if necessary. |
|
|
I'm glad to know that I'm not the only who ends up in these discussions, although at the same time I'm sorry to hear you're in them too. If that makes any sense at all.... 
We have been blessed with two living children. I'm not sure how or why this seems to happen to me so often, but I've been approached many times by people making significant erroneous assumptions about this area of our marital life, in both directions -- those who make it clear they assume we aren't faithful to Church teaching, and those who make it clear they assume we don't care to be faithful to Church teaching.
I wonder sometimes how much responsibility I have to limit scandal on this subject. To some degree I feel compelled to correct their assumptions, mainly by saying something along the lines of "OF COURSE we would be overjoyed to have another child!" without getting into details. Sometimes that ends the discussion and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes people ask very pointed and intrusive questions that leave me gaping!
I'm not particularly fast on my feet and I'm very introverted and would really rather not discuss these issues with the general public, so I'm afraid I'm not a very good witness. If anyone has a suggestion on how to handle this situation gracefully and charitably, I'm all ears.
__________________
Patty
Mom of ds (7/96) and dd (9/01) and two angels (8/95 and 6/08)
Life at Home
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mary G
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5790
|
| Posted: Aug 28 2007 at 12:33pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Stephanie_Q wrote:
We're reading Theology of the Body, trying to really understand how postponing a pregnancy through the use of NFP fits in with being open to life and trusting in God's providence. It's especially difficult because we're surrounded by family and friends who are using NFP to try and conceive and here we are thinking about using it to postpone. Something about it just doesn't seem right... |
|
|
Stephanie -- which version are you reading. The latest translation by Michael Waldstein is considered by those who know to be THE DEFINITIVE translation of JP2's work ... Waldstein actually went to the original notes (in both Polish and Italian) to translate ....
But, I think we're getting a bit beyond the purview of 4Real when we try to discuss something so theologically detailed and intense ... this really needs to be discussed among you, your spouse and your priest to ensure that the WHOLE situation is looked at honestly to determine whether you should act as a providentialist or use NFP ...
__________________
MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
PDyer
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 25 2005
Location: Ohio
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1043
|
| Posted: Aug 28 2007 at 12:48pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Mary G wrote:
Stephanie_Q wrote:
We're reading Theology of the Body, trying to really understand how postponing a pregnancy through the use of NFP fits in with being open to life and trusting in God's providence. It's especially difficult because we're surrounded by family and friends who are using NFP to try and conceive and here we are thinking about using it to postpone. Something about it just doesn't seem right... |
|
|
Stephanie -- which version are you reading. The latest translation by Michael Waldstein is considered by those who know to be THE DEFINITIVE translation of JP2's work ... Waldstein actually went to the original notes (in both Polish and Italian) to translate .... |
|
|
Yes, the translation is wonderful! Some other documents we found helpful in evaluating our response in this area: Humanae Vitae and Familiaris Consortio (of course), Moral Use of Natural Family Planning by Janet Smith (a pdf file) and Pope John Paul II and Humanae Vitae by Janet Smith (I'm sorry I can't locate this document online right now). I'm sure there were more but I don't have record of them right now and the kids need me soon. If you have need pm me and I'll try to find them.
I'll add you to my "prayer mirror". This is a very difficult question for you and your spouse and your confessor or spiritual director. I wish you peace!
__________________
Patty
Mom of ds (7/96) and dd (9/01) and two angels (8/95 and 6/08)
Life at Home
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
mary theresa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Nov 08 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 766
|
| Posted: Aug 28 2007 at 1:04pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Matilda wrote:
I completely sympathize! The problem I have is with the "trust" argument. You know the argument that these people throw at you about how you have to trust God and believe that he will provide everything you need including a medical miracle if necessary. Yes, God can do anything, and yes, he has been known to cure women of various illnesses during pregnancy, but what is "trusting" God and what is "testing" God?
|
|
|
Matilda, you made me think of something that I heard heard from several sources that helped me to see that using NFP to postpone pregnancy is not being less trusting than those who do not postpone.
God in most cases (of course not all -- then we wouldn't have miracles!) does not interfere with the laws of nature that he has put in place. The conception of a child is one of those biological processes that will happen when certain physical and natural components are in order.
So, just as God would not suspend the laws of gravity if we threw a stone into the air, neither would He suspend the laws of nature during an act of intercourse in which all the necessary biological elements were in place. He created nature to act in a certain way and why would He change that -- except in the case of a miracle.
Of course, a child has an immortal soul and is not just a biological result of mating like an animal's offspring is. But part of how we participate in the creation of a human being, (and I WISH I could remember where I read this!) is by, in a sense, compelling God to create a soul by our actions. So, God allows himself to follow our lead, as it were. He is so extremely respectful of our choices!
Am I making sense? I hope this doesn't sound heretical  . It makes the whole thing so beautiful to me to know that God works this way.
Also, a Thomist philosophy professor from the Catholic college that I went to told me once that it wouldn't make sense for God to endow man with reason, the highest and most noble of all His gifts, the ability to know, and then in the most sublime area of our lives -- the concieving of children -- wish man to stop using his own gift of reasoning and relinquish any part in determining the right path for his own family and that moment.
(This was in response to someone who might say that NFP was ONLY to be used in cases of life and death and NEVER any other time. And this was just his own personal opinion based on his Thomistic understanding of the gift and the meaning of man's reason.)
It is so hard to carry the weight of this decision, because there is often uncertainty and self-doubt. And, as several have said, only the married couple can truly know the path that they must walk.
I will be praying for you beautiful women. God sees your struggle and He will surely be helping you!
__________________
Mary Theresa
mother to 3 little girls --March '06, Dec '07 and Jan '10
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Matilda
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 17 2007
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1827
|
| Posted: Aug 28 2007 at 1:49pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Lots of interesting things to think about here! Thanks Mary Theresa!
__________________
Charlotte (Matilda)
Mom to four (11 , 10 , 9 & 5 ) an even split for now
with bookend boys and a double girl sandwich
Waltzing Matilda
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Stephanie_Q
Forum Pro
Joined: Aug 25 2007
Location: Nebraska
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 479
|
| Posted: Aug 28 2007 at 1:54pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Thanks Mary and Patty. Our priest recommended the Waldstein translation and it is what we have. I'm sorry if I was going beyond the purview of 4Real with my comment. I AM afraid to have more right now (feeling overwhelmed, like Macmom) with 4 kids aged 5 and under. I want to be able to use NFP and trust God at the same time like happymama:
happymama wrote:
| We pray to be open, we take things one day at a time, we pray for each other. Ultimately the events of each day are in God's hands. I think we just have to continually entrust each and every day to Him! |
|
|
and mary theresa (thanks for those thoughts!)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Anyone afraid to have more?
