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lapazfarm
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Eleanor,
The problem with that argument is that we are not talking about complex medical procedures here. We are talking about teaching our children.
Let me explain a bit where I am coming from.
As homeschooling parents we are faced continually with folks who think we can't do it properly on our own. We can't teach Calculus or foreign languages or Shakespeare or even proper socialization.We are not given the credit for having brains in our heads and the ability to learn and do what it takes to teach our children whatever it is they need because we don't have specialized (ie "teacher") training.
I get this kind of skepticism when I tell people I intend to homeschool through high school. But then when folks find out I used to be a professional classroom teacher, then suddenly it's "OK". And that bothers me a lot. Because, having been a very successful teacher I know that official training has little or nothing to do with success in the classroom. In fact, I never did go through education school and was never certified. Yet I constantly had other teachers, those with certification, coming to me for help and ideas and advice. I ended up being put in leadership positions, training other teachers, without having been "trained" myself! My training came from experience in the classroom, from my own research into learning styles and brain function, and from my love of the children I taught. And us teachers, getting together and sharing with each other insight about what worked and what didn't, in the teachers lounge, over the photocopier, or over a beer at the local hangout after school, learned more together than we ever did from any official training we had gotten.
So, my point in all of this is that, again, this isn't rocket science. It is a teaching method. It is not over any of our heads and we CAN learn this. If not through official CGS channels, then through books, DVds, and best of all through moms like us, in the trenches, getting together and learning and sharing with one another. So the official CGS folks can scowl and scoff at my make-shift methods all all they want, but I am just going to go about my business of teaching my children the best I can.
In all kindness and love for CGS trainers everywhere, this is not meant as a personal criticism, but as a commentary on our abilities as homechooling mothers to work wonders if given half a chance.
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Theresa
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onemoretracy
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lapazfarm wrote:
We are not given the credit for having brains in our heads and the ability to learn and do what it takes to teach our children whatever it is they need because we don't have specialized (ie "teacher") training.
I get this kind of skepticism when I tell people I intend to homeschool through high school. But then when folks find out I used to be a professional classroom teacher, then suddenly it's "OK". And that bothers me a lot. Because, having been a very successful teacher I know that official training has little or nothing to do with success in the classroom. |
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I encounter this in almost every new conversation I have about homeschooling.
I see what Eleanor is saying. I need to be aware and honest of my limitations and if I cannot properly teach/guide or instruct my kids in something I will have to put aside my pride and get some help. Actually I do not think anyone else here is would not do the same.
In fact, I think that is where the desire to see some video presentations is coming from. We want to see how we can do it better!
I also have noticed the tension between the Montesorri purists and those of us who are cafeteria Montessorri folks  and it does seem condecending as Teresa noted. I do not think I am being naive however, to think that I can learn how to reverently present some of the CGS lessons to my kids without going through a formal CGS training. In this case it isn't really rocket science. Admittedly I would need more than some video help on YouTube to teach that!
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Meredith
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msclavel wrote:
This thread is so timely for me as I have been concerned about my "lack of training" in Montessori in general. I have been lurking on this board for a loonngg time. But, I will focus on CGS for this thread.
...Meredith, your talk Saturday really helped me clear the final hurdle. Because, you're a mom, just like me . |
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I have worried about this too, but what it really comes down too, is these are MY children that I have decided to home educate in MY way. I am overjoyed that there are SO MANY materials available for us moms who have been doing this for quite a while now I am also appreciative of the fact that for those of us who don't have any other means of home school support that we can come here to share and glean from each other what has worked and maybe learnwhat we'd like to do differently in an environment that is loving and caring, not dissenting in another's choice method.
Melinda, I would have loved to see you wrestle that steer honey  and Maria, it was a pleasure and a joy for me to share and be with all of you, thank you for your warmth 
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happymama
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Always have to put my 2 cents in! I just want to say in regards to "asking" someone to video a short clip of official CGS training and post it on-line: I just don't support that sort of thing unless the Association of the Catechesis of the Good Shepherd approved it. Besides copyright concerns, it takes time & money to put on training, and why should we expect freebies? Or why should we be upset if a trained catechist, who has paid for her albums and spent a lot of time putting them all together, doesn't want to let us copy them? As a comparison, I'd never let friends copy my album from Moira - it's plain copyright infringement.
That said, it'd be wonderful evangelization and charity on the part of ACGS to publish for sale an official DVD intro to CGS with clips from presentations done in actual atria. It'd be a great tool to pass on to our parish priests to help them understand what it is also.
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JennGM
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happymama wrote:
Always have to put my 2 cents in! I just want to say in regards to "asking" someone to video a short clip of official CGS training and post it on-line: I just don't support that sort of thing unless the Association of the Catechesis of the Good Shepherd approved it. Besides copyright concerns, it takes time & money to put on training, and why should we expect freebies? Or why should we be upset if a trained catechist, who has paid for her albums and spent a lot of time putting them all together, doesn't want to let us copy them? As a comparison, I'd never let friends copy my album from Moira - it's plain copyright infringement.
That said, it'd be wonderful evangelization and charity on the part of ACGS to publish for sale an official DVD intro to CGS with clips from presentations done in actual atria. It'd be a great tool to pass on to our parish priests to help them understand what it is also. |
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I don't think any of your examples is what we had in mind. It would just be one mother, showing how she does it, sharing her atrium with others. It's not sharing the training. It's just giving a chance for others who have no access to an atrium to actually witness a presentation. Because of geography and financial constraints, I can't have you all in my house to give a presentation, but this way I can "have you over".
But for me, I did pay a lot of money for training. Once I have my albums done I would have no qualms to share my personal album for anyone who would like to see them. I think the point of learning IS to share...not hide it and keep it my own. Wouldn't that be like the parable of hiding my talents?
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lapazfarm
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Correct me I'm wrong (wouldn't be the first time!), but I think what was being asked was if someone on this board, who has been trained, would be willing to videotape themselves doing some of the presentations, so that we can learn from them. A friend to friend sharing. There is no copyright infringement there.
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lapazfarm
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Jenn, looks like we were responding at the same time. 
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SeaStar
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I would have no problems even paying for an "official" DVD if offered. I pay every year for continuing education, including DVDs of different surgeries and medical techniques. I am always glad to have these, and thankful that the doctors who produce them are willing to share their talents. Interestingly, at all the conferences I've been to and in all the DVDs and tapes I've watched, the doctors- who have great enthusiasm for their subject- have said: You can do this! You can learn. You can take this home and use it in your own practice, everyday.
I've never had one tell me their methods are too specialized or too advanced for me to master with practice on my own.
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Eleanor
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lapazfarm wrote:
| The problem with that argument is that we are not talking about complex medical procedures here. We are talking about teaching our children. |
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Let's not put our jobs down! Personally, I tend to think the raising and educating of young children (especially Montessori/CGS style) might actually be more complex than medicine. It's certainly deeper and more spiritual. MM herself gave up a medical career for the sake of pursuing this unique and fascinating field of study. And, with the Montessori philosophy, the formation of the teacher goes beyond learning facts and techniques... it's more of an initiation into a certain way of looking at, talking to, and thinking about the child. Every dedicated Montessori directress finds this to be a great, ongoing challenge, even with the support of trainers and colleagues. If we have suitable books and materials, self-study can take us a good part of the way toward understanding the method, but I doubt it can ever really give the whole picture. (This comes from personal experience, as I consider my own Montessori training -- even the correspondence program -- to come under the heading of "self-study.")
For this reason, if the founders of CGS believed that their specific method should be transmitted in a person-to-person way, to preserve its integrity, then I would accept the possibility that they might be absolutely correct. (Of course, that's not to say that I wouldn't learn as much as I could about the method on my own, to see what wisdom I could glean from it.) It would never occur to me to assume that the CGS folks think I'm "not smart enough" to teach my children (or anyone else's), or that their method is "over my head." If that were the case, they'd surely have a screening process before you could do the training. Last I checked, there was no such thing... you basically just had to show up to the first class.
I guess I'm looking at this differently from some people here, in that I don't see anything offensive in the suggestion that CGS might not be a realistic option for every family. We know that homeschooling parents can give their children a wonderful, first-rate education. At the same time, though, there are some forms of education that are effectively closed off to us, because they're dependent on resources that we don't have. This is always going to be true, just by the very nature of homeschooling. Even with all the money, space, and training in the world, I wouldn't be able to recreate a full atrium or Montessori classroom for my own family, because I don't have enough children of the same age. Same goes for a football team, or a marching band, or a drama club that can put on a full musical. But that doesn't mean that my children are destined to turn into tuneless, dramatically impaired couch potatoes. And this also applies to situations where we lack the resources for training. An off-kilter "CGS-inspired" variation -- or even a complete lack of CGS altogether -- doesn't mean that they're going to turn into heathens.
In a past thread, I mentioned Suzuki music lessons as an analogy. It's a wonderful method, but there's no way my husband and I would try to use it at home. If we didn't have the option of lessons with a trained teacher, we'd just teach our children music in some other way... and know that 99+% of the world's great musicians, and just plain lovers of music, have never gone to a single Suzuki class.
There also seems to be a lot of concern among some homeschoolers about finding the "best" method, and not wanting our families to be deprived of the "best." Of course, that implies that there is such a thing. Personally, I tend to believe that Montessori and CGS are the best available forms of classroom education for their respective subjects (at least, for very young children). And the philosophies have much to offer us, no matter what approach we end up taking with our own families. But I'm not at all sure that these methods (or reasonable approximations thereof) are the "best" way to homeschool, in general. As with so many things, I think it depends a lot on the family.
We had specific reasons for choosing a fairly traditional form of Montessori-at-home for our preschoolers. #1 was that my husband and I were both excited about reading and math at a very young age, and we wanted to give our children the opportunity to learn these things if they wanted to, without rushing them if they weren't interested. #2 was that we both felt that we'd been held back by a lack of self-discipline in our own lives, and we weren't confident in our ability to provide a good example of this to our children. We've been very happy with how it's worked out so far, in both respects. But that doesn't mean we think it would be ideal for everyone.
I didn't know anything about CGS until after I started studying Montessori. It sounds lovely, but -- even more so than with Montessori -- I'm inclined to think that there are other methods of teaching (both formal and informal) that could work just as well, or better, in the home environment. Again, though, for a class of children from various backgrounds (which is what it was designed for), CGS is the best I've seen. I quit volunteering for CCD in our parish, because I was driven NUTS by having to teach large amounts of rote catechism to little First Communion children. The material wasn't getting through to them in any appreciable way... they were stuck in these huge desks that didn't fit them... and, frankly, I just felt sorry for them.  The only time I saw joy or peace on their faces was when they were coloring (or when I gave them cookies at our class party!). Somehow, though, when I sit down with my own children, even rote catechism comes naturally, and it often leads to new spiritual insights on both our parts.
Okay, I'm rambling at this point. Just wanted to explain why I don't see the CGS policy as "elitist" or "condescending." Nor do I have any concern that they're depriving untrained homeschoolers (myself included) of a technique that's vital for our children's spiritual health and happiness.
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happymama
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okay i reread the original post & will take back my 2 cents. :) When i read the thread the first time i thought it was asking for video from training.
I'm totally happy with a catechist sharing her own presentations!
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lapazfarm
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Ok, for my part I'm really done with this discussion. Moving on...
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Christine
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I am going to venture into this conversation with great hesitation because I do not want to offend anyone, I simply want to share my observations.
Shortly after my son turned 4, he started participating in an Atrium in my friend's home. I could not have asked for a better CGS environment for my son. We helped my friend and catechist make materials and observed the Atrium if possible. The following year, I stepped out on my own and tried to use Moira's 3-6 album in our home, but I found that I was teaching or guiding, not inviting. I do not know how to explain this, but my friend, who had training, who opened her home to my son, seemed to be falling in love with Jesus at the same time that my son was falling in love with Him. She did not teach; she did not even guide. My friend invited just as Christ invited us all to share in his banquet.
CGS is not just about this presentation or that presentation. It is about living what you are sharing in a humble and inviting manner, stepping back, so that the child can step forward. I do not know how this can be learned except from direct observation and participation.
My son was happy to return to the Atrium last year and I wish that all of my children could experience it, as he did, but I know that it is not God's will for them at this time. My friend will not be continuing the Atrium this year as her family needs her.
I hope that I am not overstepping my bounds here, as this may have been shared in confidence, but my friend recently shared with Sophia Cavaletti that their is a great desire on the part of parents to bring CGS into the home and Sophia said that she would pray about it. I do not believe that it is hers or anyone's desire to keep CGS from the children, but rather a desire to share a love for Jesus in a way that cannot be captured on paper or possibly even on a video.
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Meredith
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Christine, what a beautiful testimony, thank you so much for sharing it with us
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Eleanor
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Christine, when I read your post, it reminded me of learning about another culture. We can read books, watch films, and talk to people who come from that culture... but it's not the same as actually living in it, in a "full immersion" situation.
(To extend the analogy a little further, small children often adapt to a new culture with more ease than adults do.)
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CatholicMommy
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Again, I have not been able to read everyone's posts (only page 1)... so just my two cents:
I would LOVE to develop something for homeschooling families - and have it on my list of projects for the future.
I do think that the training is the most wonderful retreat-type thing I've ever done. It was beautiful! But NOT everyone can do it, right?
Ok, so those of us who just want to teach at home and NOT be certified to teach at the local parish, SHOULD have something more accessible to them (ie Moira's albums, which I LOVE from what I've heard - still haven't seen). But it also sounds like there are those who want something even closer to CGS than Moira has been able to reach with her albums (going by her own descriptions).
Similar to academic education - you want a certified teacher working with children in group settings, but at home the only certification needed is love of that particular child.
Same applies here. And I intend to do whatever I can to help out - sharing information, allowing families to observe my work, etc. More ideas to follow.
:)
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Marcia
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Okay just my 2 cents here.
The way that I share my CGS training is I have opened an atrium for mainly homeschoolers in my area. It is my way of giving back what I have been given. Yes it is costly and also takes loads of time, but I really feel blessed to share it.
I have had email conversations with Cay over the years and I have to say more than anything the training helps me to learn my faith more and train me to keep my mouth shut when the children do their work. It's the training for the catechist more than just learning the presentations. I need to let the Holy Spirit be the guide, rather than my opinions...So my vote is to consider sending one person from your area to get the training so that they can open an atrium in your area. It is worth the money. Also consider asking for help to cover the costs. K of C? sometimes we just have to ask and God will provide.
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Kira
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Hello ! I was so excited when I fell upon this forum. I knew that there were 4Real moms using Moira's albums as a form of the Catechesis of the Good Shepherd ~ and I've seen some beautiful posts on what they have been doing ~ but I didn't realize there were actually discussions on the forums here about the Catechesis. How fun. I've spent the last seven or eight years intensely studying the Catechesis of the Good Shepherd and have been trained in all three levels (level one and level two three times each! ~ my parish paid for all my training). I feel so blessed at having found this work and have been trained by a group of women who travel each year to Rome to work with Sophia Cavelletti directly ~ one friend/trainer who studied under Sophia for seven years. This work is my passion. I actually met Sophia and visited her atriums with my husband when we went to Rome a couple of years ago ~ an unbelievable experience ~ and if you can believe it I just dropped in unannounced ! She was very gracious. I of course would be happy to dialouge with anyone who wished to on the subject of the Catechesis ~ and as much as it seems a 'video' would be helpful ~ it really wouldn't be as the spirit of the work doesn't lie in the technique per se and that type of information shared brings more confusion than clarity ~ it is a Living Word after all that we are inviting the child too, always changing.
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lapazfarm
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Hi Kira! I am so glad you joined us.I am sure we will all benefit from your expertise!
Since you feel a video would not be helpful, what do you suggest for those of us who would like to implement this method in our homes, but have no access to formal CGS training? Much as I would love to do a real class, it just is not an option for me. Is there some good way we can share the spirit of the work, mom to mom? Keep in mind also, that we are spread across many states (and countries, even), so getting together to learn from each other in person is not even an option, though wouldn't that be just lovely?
At this point I am tickled to have the benefit of Moira's albums and will be more than satisfied using them. But if I can gain more insight from more conversation and interaction with CGS trained moms, I would eagerly soak that up as well!
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Kira
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Hi Theresa ~ I haven't seen Moira's albums myself and am not able to comment on what she has assembled although someday I'd love to see what she has done. What ages are your children if I may ask? The spirit of the work does not need a 'real class' ~ remember Sophia herself began working with only one child at her home one on one. The montessori classroom environment lends itself beautifully to this work and there are learning benefits that come from multi-age and multiple children ~ especially for the catechist ~ who learns from the child ~ but I'm sure it can be nicely incorporated into the home environment as well. Of course one would have to make all those materials !! I have helped to build several atria and would be happy to discuss the materials as well ~ it can be surprising and helpful to find the reason why things are made the way they are. For example with the Good Shepherd work did you know that it is two dimensional because it is a parable ~ the sheep fold is round and green in representation of the womb and new life (also should always have a gate) ~ half the sheep have their heads raised to listen to the Word and half have their heads lowered to eat (Eucharist). There are many connections strung like a thread through out the catechesis works that help to make a whole ~ and to help lead the child where they are to go. My strongest suggestion for moms interested would be for them to read, read, read ~ works that Sophia and Gianna Gobbi have written and read what Sophia has read ~ and spend time working with the materials (building them and working with them alone as a child yourself) and meditate on the Scripture before you ever try to present the work to your child. ~ this in invaluable ! Also spend as much time as possible in Adoration. Then forget all you think you know and learn from your child ~ invite and dialouge ~ please do not lead or correct ~ and remember your child is entering into 'relationship' or deepening relationship with the Good Shepherd and their relationship and knowledge of Him will be unique to themselves ~ we must step out of their way.
I would be happy to discuss any individual presentations with you as well ~ which might be of more immediate value.
Hope I didn't bring more confusion and frustration
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lapazfarm
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Ok, can we start with the Good Shepherd presentation?I did this one last week, but I have a million questions!LOL!
When you say 2 dimensional for the parables, do you mean flat like felt or laminated card figures? Because I have seen them as sort of flattened wood figures (like the Worship Woodworks, I believe they are called), which are sort of flat but certainly not 2 dimensional. Well, if you want to get technical nothing can truly be 2 dimensional, but we certainly can make them flat as possible. I had made my good shepherd figure 3-D because it is what I had, but would gladly re-make it if it is important to do so. And does 3D idea extend to the sheep also, or can they be 3D animals? Obviously the sheepfold is 3D, right? And how vital is it that it be round? Mine is sort of rectangular (again, it is what I had on hand). I get the idea of representing the womb, and new beginnings, etc, but I guess I just have trouble deciding what is essential, and what is "icing" so to speak. It seems like a method that is so very deep that we could spend a lifetime preparing to get it just right, and then never implement it because there is always something more, KWIM? How do you know when it is "good enough" and just go ahead and do it?
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Why not share your CGS training?
