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Meredith
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Wow, thanks Elizabeth, you weren't kidding on the amount of material here! Any particular article strike your fancy as a good place to start or to discuss after reading, or should I just start at the top and work my way down  ?? Thanks for posting the path and I'll check back in after I read a few.
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Meredith
Mom of 4 Sweeties
Sweetness and Light
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Elizabeth
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I think I Believe in Love is a classic and I rank it right up there with The Hidden POwer of Kindness but it isn't a marriage book, per se, or a Womanhood book.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Chari
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Elizabeth wrote:
| I'm kind of sad the conversation has gone elsewhere;I promised my husband I'd join no new lists. Sort of ironic huh? |
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Gee, Elizabeth........it makes ME sad to know I made you feel sad  
The conversation has not really gone elsewhere...........the new list is about PRAYING for our husbands and each other in our vocations as wives.
God had been asking me  to start the list for sometime........but I kept putting it off.........I was getting close....but then when I saw this topic...........it felt like the sign to go ahead and just get it started.
I read a Protestant book...two actually...that were inspiring to me.....I wanted to Catholicize one of them........and share it......and share the burden of praying for my husband.......who you well know needs prayers  ..... with others.......and provide a place for new brides and old brides to interact.
There seems to be a real need for the list..........the feedback has been amazing.....and there are 185 women in just 3 1/2 days. And, the prayers are already amazing. I am in AWE. 
My favorite part of the list is the monthly novena for our husbands. I am SO excited about that.
I am going to collect a book list.......and when I have it together.,............I will post it here.
There is no need to join the list........I will always be praying for your husband no matter what, and YOU, too.......and Kim, too for that matter
And, you must be obedient to your husband.....unless maybe he will let you TRADE a list :)
That was part of my hestiation in starting the list............oh, no, NOT anotherrrrrrrr email list. But I have already been paid back so much in 3 days. And the funny thing,........it almost felt like this was where God led me, in PLACE of TCFH.......we shall see
I am sorry if it seems like I disrupted the flow of the conversation here......but, it looks back on track!
Prayerfully yours,
__________________
Chari...Take Up & Read
Dh Marty 27yrs...3 lovely maidens: Anne 24, Sarah 20 & Maddelyn 17 and 3 chivalrous sons: Matthew 22, Garrett 16 & Malachy 11
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Bridget
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 We are just all such girls! We hate for our friends to have a conversation somewhere without us!
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God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
Our Magnum Opus
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Elizabeth
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Chari,
It's not like Mike issued a mandate not join lists, we just came to an understanding about how to spend time and I promised not to join another list. He's not checking up on me or monitoring my internet time (actually, he's not even on the same coast), but I know what pulls me from my duties and this wonderful machine is it.He wouldn't care if I joined another list--but I know where my balance is and just one more list would throw it off. It's a precious, precious peace that I won't threaten. He would care very much if I traded the peace we have for more time at the computer. I'm down to two lists: CCM and a very small prayer group of just a few women . And the mail volume on CCM isn't nearly what it used to be. The message board is just enough for me--to stay connected, to have a place to wonder aloud--without distracting me from my home and the man I want to bless. I wouldn't want to trade either of those for anything. Prayer support is important and I'm glad you are so encouraged by the numbers.It is comforting to know many women are praying. It's funny; I had just finished working on a column that has taken me weeks to write--about using time and pulling back from things in order to bless my marriage and live my vocation. For me, this was the key to living "The Little Way." And then I saw Marion's post from the Little Way list about how, for her, pulling back drastically wasn't a good thing. She wrote how excited she was about your new list. One person's perfect solution, one person's clear path to contentment and marital happiness is not another's, I suppose.
It's funny, marriage columns are always so much harder to write than columns about my kids, particularly my younger kids. When it comes to bigger kids and to my husband, I have to be so careful. Would I want them telling that story to hundreds (or thousands) of people about me? Would I want them to share that struggle so publicly, even if it's a prayer request? Sometimes, when we share about our struggles or our failures, we reveal another person's sins.
Another consideration is that, at any time, my husband could peruse this board or the archives of any public list. I want to be certain that what he'd read there would bless him and not betray him. Women who are drawn to these lists tend to be writers--we think on paper and so sorts things out. The problem is that we leave a paper trail (or an e-trail). And some of the things we wrestle with and think about just don't belong "out there" forever more, even if they burden our hearts more than anything else, even if they are legitimate requests for prayer.
I think it's great that you want to write a Catholic book on wisdom for wives. And I know personally that an email list is a great place to collect stories and quotes and wisdom and to begin to package it for the women who come behind and miss the original conversation. I've done it. And some of the women who contributed back then are my best friends today. But it was a much simpler topic to write about. This one is really tricky.
That's about it for me today...morning has broken and people are waking and my timer has been beeping incessantly for five minutes
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Kim F
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Had a thought last night. A woman I know through the net announced she was separated and I made a feeble attempt to suggest the books we have discussed and why I feel so strongly about this. My husband looked over the letter and while I tried to explain it to him he had much the same response Elizabeth's dh had over her writings on the topic. Men really balk at the *s* word. I think we are so programmed to be rights oriented it seems to be asking too much. He also misunderstood that deferring to the man doesnt equal martyrdom for the woman, but a true freedom and joy. We talked a great deal and I think came to a meeting of hte minds.
I got to thinking how this is similar to the schedule issues on the other thread and how Lissa said the schedule must be hidden. I think the submission must be hidden too. What man wants to feel like a tyrant? Or like you are sacrificing to be with him? That is the exactly wrong way to go about this.
If we can't give whole-heartedly then we arent really giving. We are exacting a price. If we are attempting to come across as submissive yet at the same time canvassing the internet for sympathy (sometimes in the guise of prayer requests) we aren't really getting it.
I really believe we have been given the exact situation we need to get to heaven. God does not leave us lacking. Any trial coming our way was specially fitted for our salvation(and our spouses). I think this is particularly true of our marriages.
Not sure any of that is clear. Suddenly the Surrender to Divine Providence bk and the wife books are coming together as one sensible message for me. I ran across the precautions of St John of the Cross yesterday also and had such a *wow* moment. Will link to those as well fwiw. http://www.carmelite.com/saints/john/works/prec.htm
http://www.carmelite.com/saints/john/works/couns.htm
If you replace *superior* with husband you have the same message as the marriage bks. It follows in my mind that if God has an ordained hierarchical structure for the Church then He likely had one for the family as well, since we are the domestic church. Neither were meant to stifle us or hold us back from any good thing. They are intended to help us get to heaven. And to be joyful in the process.
I highly recc the John of the Cross readings to accompany the others. His emphasis on not focusing upon the apparent faults and weaknesses of those around us, particularly those who hold positions of authority seemed really applicable to women in general and wives in particular. Its such a tendency to think well I would gladly submit to a more godly man. Or if he would just.... Or to vent publicly about matters that are better kept in our hearts. I keep thinking about that vs in Scripture about women going about from house to house. The internet can do that for us. : /
Chari if you are still reading I hope you can be on the watch for that on your list. You have a great opportunity to steer conversation to the high ground!
Kim
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Chari
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Kim F wrote:
If we can't give whole-heartedly then we arent really giving. We are exacting a price. If we are attempting to come across as submissive yet at the same time canvassing the internet for sympathy (sometimes in the guise of prayer requests) we aren't really getting it.
I really believe we have been given the exact situation we need to get to heaven. God does not leave us lacking. Any trial coming our way was specially fitted for our salvation(and our spouses). I think this is particularly true of our marriages.
Not sure any of that is clear. I highly recc the John of the Cross readings to accompany the others. His emphasis on not focusing upon the apparent faults and weaknesses of those around us, particularly those who hold positions of authority seemed really applicable to women in general and wives in particular. Its such a tendency to think well I would gladly submit to a more godly man. Or if he would just.... Or to vent publicly about matters that are better kept in our hearts. I keep thinking about that vs in Scripture about women going about from house to house.
Chari if you are still reading I hope you can be on the watch for that on your list. You have a great opportunity to steer conversation to the high ground!
Kim |
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Oh, Kim, I wholeheartedly agree! Reading Fascinating womanhood the first time.....and one other book..........really helped me to focus on praying for change in ME.........so I can better live the life God wants me to live with those around me.......esp my husband. I just pray for one change in my husband....the one I KNOW will solve many of his issues.........because it is God's gift to all of us. It wouldn't really "solve" his problems.......just give him the graces he needs to face them.........or whatever. God can figure out the rest for him.
Thanks for reminding me to write about this on the list..........sooner than later :)
Thanks for your insight, Kim.
Love,
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Chari...Take Up & Read
Dh Marty 27yrs...3 lovely maidens: Anne 24, Sarah 20 & Maddelyn 17 and 3 chivalrous sons: Matthew 22, Garrett 16 & Malachy 11
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Kim F
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I agree with you that we can all use more grace. Especially the grace that conversion brings. I hope many women are praying for that for their dhs and it WILL improve families when men come to Christ and His Church.
To me though the beauty of these books and this whole message is to work on ourselves. Men have their own directives from God, to be sure, but I figure hey, I am not a man and they don't need me to advise, LOL. we work on us and they will be responsible for themselves.
I am challenged especially by Peter's words:
"wives should be subordinate to your husbands so that, even if some disobey the word, they may be won over without a word by their wives' conduct"
To me this is saying that we can do the very most for the men in our lives by our own behavior. No small challenge. ; ) *We* might just be the tool God wishes to use to win over these men. It was sobering to realize that the very conversion so many ardently seek might be hindered by our own behavior. : / Ah well, we keep plugging away right?
Kim
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Elizabeth
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Chari,
What is the other book you read, in addition to Fascinating Womanhood?
Kim,
I had one of those aha moments that change one's life not too long ago where all of this was concerned. There is no doubt that there were lots of things to take to prayer regarding my dh, but when I did, God hit me over the head about all the ways that I was making those very things harder for him. It was such a strange experience that I can't really put it into words but I knew it was a God thing. NOw, when I pray for him, I pray especially that God will show me how to meet him, how to help him and how to really love him well. If I can do that, I can be at peace knowing that God will fill in all those places I can't even begin to go. What I mean is, I can only do what I can do--and that's a whole lot. If there is one place that I want to be God's instrument, it's in my marriage and family. If I dig in my heels and hold out for "my way" here, I dont let God get close. But when I allow myself to be subordinate to both God and my husband, when I stay in my proper place and put all that energy to being a true helpmeet, the other things--that seemed so huge--come to a real place of peace.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Meredith
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Kim F wrote:
I am challenged especially by Peter's words:
"wives should be subordinate to your husbands so that, even if some disobey the word, they may be won over without a word by their wives' conduct"
To me this is saying that we can do the very most for the men in our lives by our own behavior. |
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There is so much wisdom in these words, and it seems so many women tend to take offense to them and in the same turn we shoot ourselves in the foot, if you kwim. I am continually struggling with this idea not from a feminist point of view, but usually because I just want my own way  . How do others of you tend to work through this in your marriages???
I'm interested in the Fascinating Womanhood also and Elizabeth, who was the author for I Believe in Love, I didn't find this one on that earlier link you sent. Thanks so much.
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Meredith
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Sweetness and Light
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Angela F
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Elizabeth wrote:
| I also had three close friends to talk with about what I was reading. They were private, intimate discussions grounded in the kind of trust that comes with being kindred spirits. While I think recommending resources and general encouragement are great things, I'm not sure an intimate discussion of those books or of a marriage in particular can or should be done in a public forum...I'd be interested to hear what others think. |
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Elizabeth,
I understand your points about discussing or having heart to hearts with kindred spirits. And yet, I was a little sad to think that among my good Catholic homeschool friends - well - I'm not sure I could do that. Well, with my one dear friend, yes I could. I guess I'm just thinking out loud and wanted to respond when you said you'd be interested to hear what others think. I guess I feel I am so blessed to learn and be a part of this forum - living in rural Iowa, our Catholic homeschool group has 5 families in it. And I'm the only one with a CM/Real Learning bent. Sometimes I feel a little like the black sheep - not wanting to re-create "school" in our home.
So, I'm rattling on here and not sure where I stand, except to say that I really do feel a kindred with the women here and detailed personal discussions probably don't belong in the public, but I'm really feeling the need (God is putting it into my heart, big time!) to really focus on my wifely vocation. So dh, schedules, keeping the house in some order...I'm really looking for the support, the discussions, the prayer, what else?
Anyway, thanks for listening, and I loved your article on Catholic Exchange today.
God bless,
Angela
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Mom to 7 blessings - welcome to Hanna Clare 1/19/10
"‘Great’ holiness consists in carrying out the ‘little’ duties of each moment."
St. Josemaria Escriva
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Elizabeth
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Dear Angela,
I'm glad you like Little and Hidden; there's a huge piece of my heart in that essay  . I know how difficult it can be to find someone with whom to discuss specifics of our lives as wives and mothers. Sometimes, we need to share the intimate details in order to gain wisdom and perspective. Perhaps there is a woman or two you've met here with whom you'd like to correspond privately. I know that some of my best friends are women I've met online. They have grown to in-real-life friendships and frequent telephone conversations. One online friend even bought a house across the street and is a daily in-real-life blessing in my life  . Another lives miles and miles away but our teenagers found each other online, too, amidst hundreds of other teens . And then there is MacBeth--who is so dear to me that it evades words. OTOH, I have been badly hurt by online relationships. To trust and be betrayed is very painful. And if you have confided in print, then you leave a trail of your heartfelt confidences in the hands of someone who will not protect them and may even distort them. So,I urge you not to talk too freely until you are quite sure you are in a very safe relationship. Pray for prudence and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance where any friendship is concerned.And then just keep your eyes wide open.
I think there are several of us here who want to talk about our vocations and living authentic lives as Catholic wives and mothers. I don't want to discourage you from that. I just want to be sure that as we do it, we protect our husbands and our children. To do that, we might need to move specifics to a private conversation. That doesn't mean we can't talk about being keepers at home, it just means we can't talk about our husband's temper or his unwillingness to lead spiritually or some such thing in a specific manner.
Let's keep talking !
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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MacBeth
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I just wanted to add a note of caution here...
This is a very open forum, and we often share freely. Sometimes we share too freely . Sometimes the folks with whom we share think about things very differently, and might come at a situation with a very different perspective or attitude. Sometimes we can be unintentionally hurtful. I think we all need to be cautious; e-mail, forums, bbs, etc. are all wonderful, but mistakes in interpretations are common.
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God Bless!
MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
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MicheleQ
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Elizabeth this is a beautiful article! It's so timely and says something that really needs to be said. Well done.
Elizabeth wrote:
| I think there are several of us here who want to talk about our vocations and living authentic lives as Catholic wives and mothers. I don't want to discourage you from that. I just want to be sure that as we do it, we protect our husbands and our children. To do that, we might need to move specifics to a private conversation. That doesn't mean we can't talk about being keepers at home, it just means we can't talk about our husband's temper or his unwillingness to lead spiritually or some such thing in a specific manner. |
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This is such a good point! I remember hearing Kimberly Hahn talk about this once. I always ask myself, "would I want my husband complaining about me to a bunch of people--even if he was right?" No, of course not. I would feel betrayed and so would he if I did that to him. We also need to remember that though we see all their faults we still have a lot of love for our husbands because we know ALL sides of them, but other people may only know them by what we say about them and we can ruin someone's opinion of our husband before they have ever even met him. How sad that is because for all their faults, most of us are married to some pretty great men! Besides, none of us would ever like that done to us.
Well that's my 2˘.
God bless!
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Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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teachingmyown
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This reminds me of the Marie Bellet song in which a woman runs into a friend, who is presumably divorced, who encourages the woman to complain and rebuke her husband, even to "call it quits". The woman replies that her friend does not "know the half of it". The friend can see the externals, but not the love and intimacy, the trust and security that binds a couple even when there are problems. The woman then tells her "you don't know the half that makes me whole." It is really a beautiful song.
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In Christ,
Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
Remembering Today
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Marybeth
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A book which helped our marriage (me in particular) was The Five Languages of Love. It opened up some much needed communication and showed us some practical ways in which to express our love for one another. I tend to get very caught up in whatever activity I am engaged at in that moment. I wanted to step back and really show my dh the love and respect I have for him. Thanks Elizabeth for advice regarding sharing info. about our spouse. It is very prudent advice.
Marybeth
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Catholic Womanhood
