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hopalenik
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| Posted: Aug 16 2007 at 12:46pm | IP Logged
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Hi,
This thread has made me thoughtful for many reasons. I sit on both sides of the fence, it just depends on the day. I went to Catholic school and wore skirts everyday. I went to college and was super alternative, Gothic and hippie and only wore skirts every day but my hair was jet black, and there were lots of rock groups posted acrost my chest and I had a cigarrette hanging out of my mouth constantly. I always wore Birkenstocks (sp?) or Dock Martin shoes, thick cotton black tights, long black skirts or long hippy skirts and tshirts with at least short sleeves. Was I being modest? By definition, yes...there was no flesh showing. But obviously, the attitude, the colors and some of the groups on my shirt would make my modesty -immodest. I knew in college that by dressing the way that I did, people would notice. I would stand out and people would ask questions...at the time I was liberal and I wanted to argue with people...And people did notice and did ask questions and did argue....why aren't you dressed like everyone else?
After I graduated, I got a job as a chemist in the pharmaceutical industry and I still wore long skirts but I started becoming a little more normal by dying my hair reddish instead of black and going from all black to dark purple and dark green for my wardrobe. I lost the groupie tshirts. My attitude was still in your face and they had a nasty nickname for me at work. But I always wore skirts. I have always hated jeans. Everyone else, wore nice pant suits, or jeans and tshirts.
I quit work a day before my twins were born, 20 months after my first child was born. I got tired of cleaning up my skirts as I got puked on 20 times every day (this is literal based on my sons medical condition at the time), so I bought my jeans. I started wearing pants, and shorts and jeans at the very same time I started to find my faith....So while I do believe that some people may find their faith strengthened by wearing only dresses and skirts, I don't believe that everyone will...
Now, 6 years later, I mostly wear skirts but that has nothing to do with feminity for me. I think it irrelevant how you are dressed for the most part-obviously the butch haircut, dirty jeans and tshirt are not feminine. But I actually feel more feminine in the 2 or 3 pairs of pants or capris that I have. I know that they fit me better and I look nowhere near as fat in them as in skirts. I have tried skirt after skirt and skirts have always added 20 pounds to my weight-even when I was anorexic. Therefore, I always feel fat in a skirt and good looking in pants. However, I mostly wear skirts because I am comfortable in them. But...
My husband and his family HATE skirts. Both he and his family, feel like I am pretending to be some prima donna by wearing a skirt...so continuing to wear skirts has caused huge, massive amounts of friction in my already very stressed marriage. Even though I am wearing skirts from Walmart, I hear routinely about how "well dressed" I am for sitting around the home from various members of my family. I hear about how expensive it is to have the girls running about in skirts and dresses just getting them dirty. I hear about how I fat I look in skirts and how I need to go out get some normal clothes that will make me look better. But at the same time from friends and priests, I hear about how skirt wearing is a modesty issue, and how much my husband will love and how much better I will look. And I really have to laugh because those things may be true for some but not for all. If our primary vocation is to be obedient to our husbands, then I shouldn't be wearing skirts at all except to church and neither should all my girls. So there have been many occasions were well meaning women have touched a very toucy cord in me, not realizing that the dress issue is really not in my control at the moment.
So while, some of you may feel strongly that dress wearing is the best path towards feminity, and modesty and I don't disagree with that, I do feel very strongly that you need to watch how you approach others with those thoughts. I have no control over my children's wardrobe because everything is bought for them by others, and my husband would die, if I returned it at a financial loss just to buy skirts. I can say, without a doubt he would Divorce me. Period. All I can do is pray, and learn to happily except the humility that is being granted to me-1) for prefering skirts and doing my best to 75% of time dress myself and the girls in skirts against the wishes of family and husband and 2) face the friends and church community that holds up skirts as the virtue, while I am not always wearing them.
So while I think that having the discussion on a forum board is fine and will help more women to consider their dress choices with more wisdom, I think that one on one discussions can be very touchy and hurtful. Especially because sometimes the husband is the one doing the opposing.
Holly
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LisaR
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| Posted: Aug 16 2007 at 1:24pm | IP Logged
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Holly, thank you for bringing up these issues. I heard from a mom in a large urban city that the Catholic homeschool group insisted on skirts/dresses for its members for gatherings and such. It has turned into a big goth fest for the teens, and now most, if not all (the exception being my friend's daughter) dressing exactly how you described. "At least they are modest" crow the moms, and they might be missing the point.
I am wondering, why don't you jsut wear what your husband prefers all of the time? It sounds like it is still modest, just pants and jeans as opposed to skirts and dresses? Is it because you feel controlled by the in laws?
My dh is not as opinionated, and we have no issues with extended family, yet, when he mentioned that he would rather I not wear skirts all the time, I took that to heart and jumped off the crusade for dresses and skirts for good. 
thank you so much for sharing your story. when we do dress markedly "different" than the mainstream it may draw negative attention to ourselves, as you point out.
It reminds me of something that was counseled to us long ago "always ask yourself is this the ditch you want to die in" ....
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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knowloveserve
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| Posted: Aug 16 2007 at 1:32pm | IP Logged
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I've not been a member of this forum long enough to get nauseated by ALL the discussion on this issue; I apologize if it seems like a dead horse to many of you.
I for one am new to skirts-only and have found these posts very helpful to read though. I especially appreciate some of Red Cardigan's thoughts as it makes me realize how I need to approach this issue.
By our society's standards long skirts are an objective sign of modesty and femininity... at least where I live. Skirts in and of themselves may not be inherently more modest, but they are PERCEIVED as more modest and feminine by the general public. This is the secondary reason why I choose to wear them. The primary reason is that I can feel myself being set apart in this world and wearing skirts reminds me of the dignity of my vocation and inspires in me the desire to cultivate virtues like graciousness that are so easy to lose sight of when one gets lost in the shuffle of the secular life. While skirts aren't a golden ticket key to virtue, they ARE a less common sight around here and FOR ME tend to breed the graces that I so desire to further my spirituality. I am not articulate enough to state what bearing this has on OTHER'S spirituality. I don't worry about that. My mother wears grubby jeans as a housecleaner every day and she's one of the holiest people I know. The woman in my parish who spends FULL NIGHTS in Perpetual Adoration, and who is a wealth of wisdom... wears pants and zip-up fleece vests all the time.
For me, clothing isn't an END for my spirituality... it is simply a means for me to achieve the virtues I want. That others have different means to achieve these virtues is entirely possible.
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Ellie
The Bleeding Pelican
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hopalenik
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| Posted: Aug 16 2007 at 1:58pm | IP Logged
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Lisa,
I feel more comfortable in skirts just because I have always worn them, so I keep wearing them. But I brought up my story, because sometimes I feel that it is wishful thinking on the part of some that wearing skirts will instill more modesty and feminity on the part of the wearer. As I said, I have always worn them but at work as was called the BQ for *itch queen for my very aggressive, outspoken, arrogant and perfectionist attitude. During my pregnancies I was the quality control notebook checker for our department, and no one's notebook passed my desk without one million stickies, corrections and redoes. The feminity that I need to reclaim has nothing at all to do with my dress and everything to do with gaining a sense of empathy and compassion and lowering my voice.
When I first moved to my current location the modesty thing was being greatly discussed in the area. I went on EWTN to ask for an opinion. The opinion elicited was that dressing in a skirt and looking frumpy all the time probably does less to evangelize the faith than someone who has on a well made pant suit that actually fits. If we consistently look ridiculous to the outer world no one is going to take an interest in what we have to think or say. Now most of my friends who dress only in dresses, look attractive, feminine, and their husbands support the decision. So that is great and good for society. But I don't think that it works that way all the time, and I wanted to give the different perspective. And I do absolutely think that some people are being judgemental when they go in depth into this discussion. Telling someone that in church they should have their bellies, shoulders, knees and upper chest covered is a good thing but implying that they are immodest for wearing pants is a much different story. We don't ever really know what goes on in each other's homes...I have blog all about that! My husband and I have some really big things we need to work on and my dress code is not one of them at this point in time. Maybe later on it might be...and I do mostly wear skirts. I don't assume that it is my business to tell anyone else how wonderful life would be if they wore skirts. But if asked directly, depending on the audience, I would probably answer with a statement about modesty and feminity. I assume with the one or two women who view me as super modest, that if they continue to wear shorts or pants that they have other issues to deal with that are currently more important.
In my house, it was getting my husband on board with homeschooling, then it was getting my husband on board with signing a no cadaveric organ transplantation form (our son is a transplant patient), now it is getting my husband to pray the rosary with the family or even on his own. Worrying about how I and the girls dress beyond the obvious, is not a high priority at the moment. We are dressed modestly, in the sense that little flesh is showing and that is probably what is most important. Maybe, my opinion will change in a few years and maybe God will call me to all skirts-only. But he definitely has not yet. However, I do feel that he is calling me to a mantilla, but I am afraid to broach that topic with my husband. I can see the eyes rolling already. Someone is probably going to have to give me one as a gift...
Holly
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Lisbet
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| Posted: Aug 16 2007 at 2:12pm | IP Logged
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I have a confession to make.....I got my hair cropped yesterday, mega short. My husband said it looks very feminine, morso than my bangs hanging in my face all day...
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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hopalenik
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| Posted: Aug 16 2007 at 2:42pm | IP Logged
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I have one other thing to add. The most feminine woman that I know is an 80 year old English ballet teacher (my daughters') by the name of Miss Jill. And I have never seen her in anything but pants. If Charlotte Mason were alive and taught ballet, I might consider that she was reincarnated as Miss Jill (figure of speech only). Miss Jill is feminine in ever pore of her skin. She is gentle in her words-always even when disciplining. She is graceful to a fault in all of her motions. Her voice is quiet, gentle and lilting. She has control of her emotions even when she is very angry. She has in ballet terms -carriage-that implies so much more than just good posture. She can move quietly, and gracefully even while she is dragging a truculent preschooler away from Mommy. But never once have I seen her in a skirt. She wears fitted, pleated slacks and fitted, gauzy botton down blouses. Maybe it was her generation and English society but she possess something that no woman my age possess'. It is not something that I can articulate and probably has something to do with the time in which she was raised because my old German ballet teacher from 20 years ago was the same way and so was the old one from Russia.
I could wear dresses all day with pretty flower hats, and lovely accessories and I would not be as feminine as Miss Jill is in her pants.
Holly
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LisaR
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| Posted: Aug 16 2007 at 4:03pm | IP Logged
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see now Lisa, isn't this interesting: my dh asks me whenever I am off to get my hair cut to keep it long, and with this recent cut (just above shoulder length) he asked if I could try growing it longer- he thinks it is much more feminine on me to have long hair! I saw your photo- I love the haircut and style you have. Hope your last weeks are not too hot!
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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Willa
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| Posted: Aug 16 2007 at 4:45pm | IP Logged
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hopalenik wrote:
It is not something that I can articulate and probably has something to do with the time in which she was raised because my old German ballet teacher from 20 years ago was the same way and so was the old one from Russia.
I could wear dresses all day with pretty flower hats, and lovely accessories and I would not be as feminine as Miss Jill is in her pants.
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I can really picture her from your description, Holly -- and have noticed a similar kind of femininity in some other dancing teachers and certain other kinds of rigorously trained artists.... like musicians and even some runners.
It makes me wonder if femininity is associated with discipline in some way. I once read a book called "Disciplines of the Beautiful Woman" -- Protestant perspective but just the title alone made me ponder.
Getting off the track of the skirts-only subject, perhaps, but you made me think.
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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nissag
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And I think many would agree that there is absolutely nothing modest about a leotard and tights.  I danced for a good many years and have no problem with the attire, nor my children seeing dancers in it. What you said about Ms. Jill, Holly, is exactly the point I was trying to make. Modesty and feminity is so much more than clothing. It's attitude, deportment and respect for others as well. It's also knowing what to wear for a certain group of people.
Tangent Warning:
If I were visiting an Amish community, or a conservative Muslim one, I would not wear shorts or sleeveless or short-sleeved top. My friend Ameera, who is from the Emirates was surprised when I said I'd wear Hijab if I visted her there. To me it's a sign of respect for the modesty of the other women and for the sensibilities of the men as well. Culturally, I think that a woman in Western attire would be viewed as "one of those women". That's not a shame I would wish to bring upon my hosts or my own family.
I think if wearing a skirt helps remind you of your duties and your vocation, then it's a wonderful thing! That's why nuns and monks wear habits and priests and (sometimes) deacons wear collars.
I want to share with you a wonderful website I came across while researching modesty awhile back. If you click on the various forms of observant dress, she gives a great description. Of course, this comes from a Quaker perspective,but I think many of her observations are relevant to our discussion as well.
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Nissa
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MarieC
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Lisbet wrote:
| I have a confession to make.....I got my hair cropped yesterday, mega short. My husband said it looks very feminine, morso than my bangs hanging in my face all day... |
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It looks super cute!
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Marie
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BrendaPeter
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knowloveserve wrote:
| The primary reason is that I can feel myself being set apart in this world and wearing skirts reminds me of the dignity of my vocation and inspires in me the desire to cultivate virtues like graciousness that are so easy to lose sight of when one gets lost in the shuffle of the secular life. |
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knowloveserve, you make some very good points, particularly about your mom & that lady in adoration, however I cut & pasted this because it seems to strike at the heart of the entire thread.
At least to me, this topic seems to touch on 2 important areas, modesty & femininity.
We can probably all agree that a woman can be modest in all types of clothing since it's intrinsically linked to behavior. (I often request that my dc sit "modestly" with their legs closed, etc. & of course that has nothing to do with clothes!) There are also 2 separate aspects to modesty, i.e. how a woman perceives herself in terms of modesty & how others perceive her. Many of us have different standards in regard to modesty which seems to be directly linked to a formation of conscience, I think.
The bigger issue, however, appears to be that sense of dignity which is directly linked to femininity. I'm in the middle of reading Mulieris Dignitatem and it would certainly be interesting to know the number of times Pope JP II uses the word "dignity" in this encyclical! Obviously, he thought that women in our modern world need to re-capture that dignity.
When I think of Holly's example of Miss Jill, I think of her as a woman from an older generation who was formed with that sense of dignity that comes from within and wearing pants does not have much of an effect on that. Also, there are some women who are naturally feminine from birth, like one of my dds. For some of us due in part to the effects of our modern culture and/or a lack of a "natural" sense of the feminine, perhaps we feel the need to "put on" dignity by wearing a skirt?
The other thing that really stands out from knowloveserve's quote is being "set apart". There's the aspect of being "set apart" from our modern culture - i.e. "in the world but not of it", but equally as important is to be "set apart" from men. What I mean to say is that dressing differently from men emphasizes our differences and has the potential to enhance those feminine virtues we are seeking, particularly in a culture where there is such a thrust from the Evil One towards UNISEX, EQUALITY and SAMENESS.
The thoughts shared on this thread have been so inspiring, even for an exclusive skirt-wearer! Thank you everyone for sharing your thoughs and allowing me to do the same! You've all helped me to better understand how dressing my own dds in skirts/dresses has helped emphasize the differences between them & their brothers and (hopefully!) this is helping both sexes gain a sense of healthy gender identity.
Also, please pray that women in our culture would understand their true dignity. When I see how women in our culture dress (I'm speaking of those who dress extremely immodestly or in a very masculine way), I often think "How sad. They really don't know how beautiful they are!" By beautiful, I mean more specifically their dignity which comes from their God-given capacity to love.
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Blessings,
Brenda (mom to 6)
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Regarding a skirts-only argument
