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Red Cardigan
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All due respect to Elizabeth and Carole, but I think each time this issue is discussed people have the opportunity to learn and grow in charity toward each other, and that seems worthwhile to me.
I'd like to share here a comment that was left on my blog when the skirt issue was discussed there. A woman who is not an exclusive skirt-wearer wrote:
"You know, I was brought up thinking (and really believing) that women who wore skirts all the time were more holy. I have such a hard time NOT thinking that. Maybe it keeps me humble, since I don't wear skirts all the time, when I meet someone who does, it immediately elevates them in my mind. I elevate them above myself on the holiness factor. I can't help it, it's like an unconscious reaction."
When we insist that skirt wearing is more modest, more feminine, more pleasing to Our Lord or Our Lady this is the sort of thing that can happen. I do think it's important to get beyond the articles of dress and examine the attitudes behind them. As a personal sacrifice, if it truly is that for you (as it isn't for me) skirt-wearing is as good and efficacious as any other voluntary sacrifice, properly done. But it's just one of many things we can do to please God, and it's not even a really important one, is it? I think the One who told us to rend our hearts and not our garments would also tell us to create modesty, humility, and charity in our hearts first of all.
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Willa
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Red Cardigan wrote:
I do think homeschooling is objectively best. I don't believe someone is acting immorally by not homeschooling.
But to say that skirts are inherently more modest and decent than pants is to say that pants are inherently less modest or even immodest, and less decent or indecent. The moral realm then enters the equation: if pants are immodest, then the person who wears them is dressed immodestly from an objective standpoint.
So the person who says that pants are "less modest" than dresses/skirts is telling pants-wearers than their style of clothing lacks modesty. |
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I don't think that's the difference between the two examples. It's just as easy for the non-homeschooler to feel "judged" by the homeschooler, even if the homeschooler is not making any judgments. If I say that homeschooling brings families closer and is a more effective way to learn, of course that will imply to the non-homeschooler that they are choosing a family-disrupting and less effective way to educate their kids.
If I just say it "works for us" -- well, that's usually what I do say, and it's true, but the whole truth is that I have good reasons for homeschooling even during those hard times when it really ISN'T apparently working for us : ). I am not being judgmental towards others -- who are making their own decisions by their own lights -- but I do think there are good reasons for homeschooling beyond personal preference. Otherwise why would I do something that is sometimes very hard and unrewarding in the short run?
I think the skirts-only people feel the same way, and why not? You can make an important decision that affects your life, like voluntary simplicity, and be passionately convinced it is for the best for very good reason, and yet not be judging everyone who did not make that choice at this time in their lives.
Catholics have charisms; we don't all have to do everything the same way, nor do we have to recourse to some barebones "mere Christianity" -- thank God! (says the convert). There are Franciscans and Carmelites and Jesuits and so on, all pointing out a different aspect of the One Truth.
These are prudential issues. That means, as Elizabeth said, we decide what is good and right to do in our own situations. Believing that our choice is the better one is not necessarily judgmental -- it is not relativistic either -- "whatever works for you". It is a discipline, a charism (using the terms loosely)
Hopefully, most people who are sincerely striving to live out God's will in their lives will find it affecting their exteriors in various ways. Maybe not uniformly the same way exactly -- I've read your blog post about the "voluntary community" Red Cardigan, and I agree there's always that danger of imposed, non-essential uniformity. That is human nature ---the temptation to heap burdens upon others and feel superior about optional non-essentials. Hopefully we will guard against that in our lives; certainly if we feel smug about our choices, "we have our reward" and it's an unsatisfying one in eternal terms.
But a possible abuse is not really an argument, logically speaking. There are possible abuses inherent in every good, worthwhile choice. Take your pick, whether drinking alcohol, or homeschooling, or daily Mass -- whatever.
Personally, I don't wear only skirts. I am wearing jeans right now as I type on the computer. But I've been grateful for the (charitable) arguments of the skirts-only women; they refer to issues I think are important -- modesty and the dignity of femininity, and so on.
Edited to add: I hope this doesn't come off sounding too strong -- this email thing can be hard! I kept starting posts yesterday and not finishing them because I couldn't figure out quite how to say what I wanted to.
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Willa
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Elizabeth
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WJFR wrote:
| I am wearing jeans right now as I type on the computer. But I've been grateful for the (charitable) arguments of the skirts-only women; they refer to issues I think are important -- modesty and the dignity of femininity, and so on. |
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And I'm wearing my husband's boxer shorts and a T-shirt--a clear sign that I've been on the computer way too long this morning and it's time to get doing the laundry. Enough discussing femininity for me! It's time to look well to the ways of my household and actually live it.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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DominaCaeli
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Lisbet wrote:
| Carole, I don't know if anyone else feels this way, but I know in the past I have found this topic VERY helpful in my own journey to skirts. |
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Lisa, I feel this very same way! I had felt the urge to wear skirts for some time, and my husband, though not explicit about it, has always preferred that I wear skirts, but it was the discussions on this forum that finally led to my wardrobe change. 
And if I could, I would just say "ditto" to everything Willa said!! Making the personal decision to wear only skirts, or even thinking that skirts are objectively a "better" choice, does not necessarily lead to judgmentalism.
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folklaur
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This is off topic of the original post - I apologize - but I am really trying hard to understand something. I think it is getting muddled up in the "intentions". Please note - these are hypothetical questions, as I am just trying to work through some of the thought processes, and so I am typing as I think…I hope you all will understand I am just trying to find clarification - I am in no way challenging or anything… I half wonder if I should actually be posting this in the Religion category instead, as I guess it is a question that might fit there better. It was just that this thread is what got me thinking about it….
So here goes...
What if I did think wearing skirts WAS more feminine? Is that a wrong assumption? Am I wrong for thinking it, or wrong for saying it? Or am I just wrong if I think women in general should wear skirts?
What if I happened to think that it did make me more holy - for whatever reason - say personal sacrifice, or a constant reminder of the lifestyle I want to lead, etc - am I wrong to think that? We are supposed to be striving towards holiness, right? So if I am doing something that makes me feel that way, am I wrong to feel that way? Am I supposed to strive towards holiness, but never really feel that way because then it is prideful? Or is that I should not feel "more holy than ___."
In the homeschooling example - what if I DO think homeschooling is the best way to educate children? Am I wrong to feel that way? If so, why? Because it isn’t being tolerant? But what if I say I understand that not all people may be able to but I still think it is the best way? How does that make me wrong? For having an opinion, or for having an opinion that isn't seen as "tolerant"? So am I obliged to change my personal thinking on the subject?
Would my opinion be less valid BECAUSE it can be viewed as less tolerant? Is it wrong for that reason?
I hope I am making sense.
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LisaR
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I don't have time to spend on this anymore- but always enjoy reading what others have to say about their convictions to dress/veil, and so on. I did not want to get graphic with my post about college days. Dh and I were a part of a very conservative Catholic College, and as Celeste and Molly know we were there in the hey day of the jumper look :) . Very long, very shapeless, for the most part. Friends in my dorm would make them for me and many others!
When dh and I got engaged, we were still students, as were many of our friends, or newly graduated. The men formed a sort of support group/social group encuoraging one another to lead a chaste courtship. They would try to get group dates together, as opposed to solo dating all the time, etc... It was loosly formed, but at least 20 different men were involved here and there, with some support from some male Profs and Community at large.
Anyway, the topic of fiance's and close girl friends wearing skirts came up more than once, as being very attractive and feminine and modest, and yet too tempting for the men to pull up. I'd rather not go into more detail but you get the gist.
I do know God speaks to us through our dh's on this point as well. It was my dh who actually asked that I not wear skirts exclusively anymore, and that was the end of discussion for me.
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I guess Laura I'd say in essentials unity and in all things charity. Whatever floats your boat! 
Seriously, I can appreciate your struggle and understand what you mean.
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folklaur
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LisaR wrote:
I guess Laura I'd say in essentials unity and in all things charity. Whatever floats your boat!
Seriously, I can appreciate your struggle and understand what you mean. |
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Thank you . I was hoping I wasn't coming across as challenging or anything, because I'm not, I am just trying to think through it all in my head and was getting stuck, so I thought maybe others could get the gears rolling again
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aussieannie wrote:
We do traditionally see Mary with veil and dress but when this was being discussed it made me think of a beautiful statue at a Marian Shrine in Australia that is dedicated to Our Lady by the Korean community.
The statue has Our Lady in traditional Korean clothes, interestingly enough, no veil and full length skirt. My husband took this photo because he loved it and thought Our Lady looked beautifully maternal in this particular carving:
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Anne, she's beautiful. This helps me picture how Our Blessed Mother would dress in our time. Lisa (Lisbet) said it better that I could:
Lisbet wrote:
Surely our Blessed Mother wouldn't wear in her time what I have on today, and I wouldn't wear today what She wore in her time.
Well, What would Mary do if she were physically walking the earth right now? The only thing I can figure is that she would do exactly what she did 2000 years ago, dress according to the dignity of her vocation. In her time that was draping robes and head covering, in our time, I feel that would be modest, feminine attire.
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Cay Gibson
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I wear skirts to church but way back when we were having this discussion, I went to Wal-Mart and bought me a riding skirt. I was inspired by Bridget and Suzanne and Lisa and Helen's blog posts and pictures. I wanted to be "just like them".
The very first "regular" day I wore the new skirt, I was walking to the mailbox at the end of the driveway and, as I was jumping over a rain puddle, I heard a dreadful RIPping sound. It didn't even ripped along the seam but in a back part of the material. There was a big hole in the back.
I know this could have happened just as easily with a pair of pants but it kind of ruined the experience for me. I wasn't in that skirt half a day and I had a big hole in it.
I took it back to Wal-Mart and they gave me my money back. I haven't tried to wear a dress and jump a mud puddle since. 
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MicheleQ
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Cay Gibson wrote:
I know this could have happened just as easily with a pair of pants but it kind of ruined the experience for me. I wasn't in that skirt half a day and I had a big hole in it.
I took it back to Wal-Mart and they gave me my money back. I haven't tried to wear a dress and jump a mud puddle since. |
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 Cay this is too funny! I'm not laughing at you...I'm laughing with you.
No time to join in this conversation and I'm not sure anything I have to say would add much value anyway. I wear skirts and pants pretty much equally. I have prayed about the issue and asked my dh if he thought I should wear only skirts. He doesn't. Pretty much settled the issue with me.
On the other hand I do wear a veil in church. . .but really that's another thread isn't it?
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MicheleQ wrote:
| Cay this is too funny! I'm not laughing at you...I'm laughing with you. |
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Me too, Cay....the image is hysterical! That, on top of feeling like a nun....(remember that? )
My neighbor has a place in her house where there are three steps down, a landing, then 3 steps up. We usually jump over it instead of going up and down the steps. Well, she had a straight skirt on that day instead of a full one or pants like usual, and she tried to jump and her legs couldn't separate and she just CRASHED! We were both laughing so hard!
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Lisbet
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Oh Cay, I'm so sorry that happened! Reminds me of my first ever attempt at making my own skirt. I thought "who needs a pattern for something as simple as a skirt???" When I was done I proudly tried on this calf length floral creation, only to try to take one step and fall flat on my face! That was the day I learned why straight skirts have slits!
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Too funny, Ladies!
Uggh, I wear a lot of skirts, but not exclusively. And I was really, REALLY wishing for my shorts the day we went Boat Browsing on the mainland. The last photo of me standing on the anchor over the water - that was fine, it was dandy. The shot you don't see is of me climbing down the 12' ladder off the Hunter (the 4th photo, the boat on the hard) with my skirt ballooned out Mary Poppins style.
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Cay Gibson
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marihalojen wrote:
| I was really, REALLY wishing for my shorts the day we went Boat Browsing on the mainland. |
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Oh, Jennifer! That last photo of you standing on an anchor over the water gave me the willies.
Lisbet wrote:
| That was the day I learned why straight skirts have slits! |
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Mine had a slit in the back. That's why I thought it had ripped along the seam, but it hadn't.
Wal-Mart-Fall-Apart, as the kids say. It was cheap material.
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Matilda
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I have very much enjoyed reading this thread but I wasn't going to chime in. That is until Cay's story had me laughing so hard I was crying!
Thank you Cay!
Anyway, I know this is a touchy subject, but I am one of those women who has been made to feel less than worthy by a woman who basically believed that only harlots and strumpets wore pants.
Does that mean that I believe all women who choose "skirts only" are judging me that way, no, but sometimes, some of their arguments do have an implied judgment that cannot be "proven" by any sort of facts or data (like the benefits of homeschooling vs. institutional schooling or SAHM vs. Working Moms).
As others have pointed out, saying "Skirts are more feminine, more modest and a better imitation of Our Lady" does imply that pants are less feminine and less modest. There is a difference between making a blanket statement and stating your personal preference.
To say, "I can do anything in my skirts... exercise, garden, ice skate, re-roof the house..." can sometimes carry with it a tone that someone else hears as "well, if I can do everything in my skirts, so should you" but that doesn't take into consideration our individuality. Not everyone has the coordination and gracefulness to pull off everything in a skirt.
To say, "I wear my skirts in all four seasons" can imply that everyone else can too which denies the possibility that other parts of the country have variations in the seasons your home state may not have. (I have been chuckling at my northern friends who are sweltering right now in 90 degree weather. Summertime in Texas means, triple digit heat with at least 50% humidity and an over night low in the 90's. But then again, it would be easy for me to say "I can wear skirts all winter long!" since our temperatures rarely reach single digits.)
To say "skirts are more attractive and more feminine and more complimentary to a woman's figure" seems to deny the possibility that not everyone would agree. My grandpa use to say that a large woman wearing a skirt from the back looked like two pigs fighting in a grain sack. He wasn't always the kindest of men but I have seen myself in some skirts that make his observation an accurate description.
I would love to wear more skirts and am working on finding or making some, but it is because of how they make me feel that I choose to wear them (although I don't think I will ever wear them exclusively). I try very hard not to put that "burden" on anyone else, even unintentionally in my attitude.
As I tell my kids, sometimes it's not what you say, it's the way you say it. Although it is very hard to do that in a discussion board setting like this one, we all should keep that in mind when discussing any of our choices and/or preferences.
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Matilda, that was a really nice post. Well said. The way I came to terms with all this (and the veiling issue as well) is the fact that my dh, a prayerful man, has no desire for me to skirt full time or veil for Mass. For me, it was as simple as that, and I really don't think much about it any more.
When people have used the "what would/did Mary wear" argument with my dh, he is quick to respond "what did/would St Joseph/Jesus wear - men would look like Arabic Muslims today!" and that quickly ends the discussion.
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I don't know if "this is a wrap" here on the thread, but I SO appreciate having a really good laugh over it all, thank you
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BrendaPeter
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Red Cardigan wrote:
But it's just one of many things we can do to please God, and it's not even a really important one, is it? I think the One who told us to rend our hearts and not our garments would also tell us to create modesty, humility, and charity in our hearts first of all.
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Beautiful thought, however, as a skirt-wearer I believe it is not only an important thing one can do, I believe it is VERY important, particularly in this very immodest and immoral time in history that we are a part of.
Speaking for myself, wearing a skirt exclusively has greatly helped me grow in those virtues you mentioned so really they are interconnected. My dh didn't care one way or another whether I wore skirts or not, but if you ask him today, he wouldn't want me going back to wearing pants. Our marriage is much more ordered as I have become more feminine & submissive. Were skirts responsible? Probably not 100%, but I believe they did contribute quite a bit.
I was very reluctant to switch over to skirts initially. The big leap came when I realized that I didn't want my daughters wearing pants so I needed to set the example. I believe their wearing skirts & dresses have encouraged them to be more feminine and, as a result, our boys are more masculine - something that is so needed in this present culture! The roles are very defined in our home and that is what our particular family needs in order to do the work the Lord has given us.
Please don't misunderstand me as I have wonderful friends who wear pants. I was truly called to wear skirts and I understand that the whole clothes thing is complicated & emotional (just look at this thread !) and takes alot of time to think through & process. The fact that finding comfortable as well as practical skirts is such a challlenge (thanks for the laugh, Cay!) certainly doesn't help!
I would like to leave you with this last thought. Recently one of my friends asked her husband if she should stop wearing pants & wear skirts. His reply was "I don't really care what you decide, but I know that I respect women more when they wear skirts." Needless to say, my friend didn't expect that response !
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I've enjoyed reading through this lively discussion. It is a perrenial concern of mine - modesty that is. I've come to the conclusion that modesty is meant to be a state of being, a state of mind - and not so much what we wear. However, clothing is often used to induce a state of mind and to help us to focus our behaviour and efforts. How many underwear and clothing companies advertise their garments by saying they will make you feel "s*xy"?
Many cultures, including the ancient middle eastern ones, wore loose pants underneath robes and skirts, or long tunics. Many cultures still feature long, loose pants for women - usually under a long top. I love salwar kameez. I think they are extremely feminine and modest on the whole.
This same discussion could be had about long hair/short hair, make-up, or jewelry. In fact, you could have this discussion about accessories and shoes.
I think that ladies in skirts and dresses are beautiful. And ladies in a pretty trouser outfit can be equally lovely. I even think that a gal in jeans can look both modest and feminine. I wear all and hope that I'm still regarded as a lady based on my behaviour. My mantra is not "What would Mary wear?", but "What would Mary do?"
Ultimately, for me, it comes down to cultivating a modest state of mind and being, and what makes *you* feel most feminine and modest as well as comfortable.
Blessings,
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Regarding a skirts-only argument
