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aussieannie
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I should add too, that we will probably find out on judgement day that we have all fall short and will continue to fall short in the perfection of modesty and dressing.
We are all together, trying to step forward, whichever way we think is best. But this is just been the issue of skirts - what about tops? I am still trying to improve in that area and since I like very short/no sleaves in hot weather, I know that there is a long way for me to go!
I know I would fall short in the ideals of others in this area but I when I think of particular ladies who I know who have such ideals, I don't feel judged by them at all maybe because the ladies I am thinking of are very genuinely Mary-like and I only feel loved by them but at the same time I appreciate the thoughts they share, that I am yet to have the courage to follow!
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aussieannie
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Red Cardigan wrote:
| And every time we say skirts are better, we are implying that choosing not to wear them is to choose something which is not as good, or even bad. How can we make statements like that and not see the judgmentalism? |
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No it doesn't, because everyone's life is based upon such judgements, every single day.
Homeschooling is the typical example we can all relate to. We homeschool. We homeschool because we truly believe it best for our children, for our families. We have made a judgement. We truly believe it to be the best, that's why we have chosen it. We'd be happy to share those reasons with others if asked. But I don't make judgements on the hearts of those who feel different.
I've been speaking strongly today - please know it is with a very affectionate heart towards the other ladies who feel differently. 
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monalisa
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Well, we make judgements, but, I wear jeans cuz they're comfy and good for crawling on the floor- not because I objectively feel that jeans are morally superior to other types of clothing. I wear skirts at times b/c they look nice, are breezy, or feel formal for the occasion. I'm making a judgement, but not a moral judgement. Morally, only actions, not things or people, can be said to be evil. That's from the purely philosophical view, I mean.
And I think hs is better for us, but I truly do not think it is the only way to school... I know very holy families with great, holy kids who use our local parrish schools.
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Red Cardigan
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aussieannie wrote:
No it doesn't, because everyone's life is based upon such judgements, every single day.
Homeschooling is the typical example we can all relate to. We homeschool. We homeschool because we truly believe it best for our children, for our families. We have made a judgement. We truly believe it to be the best, that's why we have chosen it. We'd be happy to share those reasons with others if asked. But I don't make judgements on the hearts of those who feel different.
I've been speaking strongly today - please know it is with a very affectionate heart towards the other ladies who feel differently.
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Well, I tend to speak strongly on this too, so if I've offended anyone I do apologize!
I do think homeschooling is objectively best. I don't believe someone is acting immorally by not homeschooling.
But to say that skirts are inherently more modest and decent than pants is to say that pants are inherently less modest or even immodest, and less decent or indecent. The moral realm then enters the equation: if pants are immodest, then the person who wears them is dressed immodestly from an objective standpoint.
So the person who says that pants are "less modest" than dresses/skirts is telling pants-wearers than their style of clothing lacks modesty. If we're talking to fellow Catholic hsing moms who already reject the evils of the world, who sincerely try to dress modestly, and who would never knowingly offend Our Lord by dressing immodestly, aren't we both judging them and laying down a burden on them which the Church doesn't?
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lilybear
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I'm a little confused. I made a personal decision to stop wearing pants because I feel more modest and Mary-like in skirts and dresses.
Is that wrong? Or is it only wrong if I tell someone else how I feel about it? If someone asks how me why I don't wear pants, should I try to change the subject instead of answering? Or should I just go back to wearing pants, since it doesn't really matter how I dress?
(Actually, I've been wearing skirts for about ten years now and the subject has only come up a couple of times; I never bring it up. When it did come up, I just said that skirts make me feel more feminine and modest. No one ever appeared offended, and one non-Catholic friend said that I have inspired her to dress more femininely.)
Who is being judgmental here?
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Red Cardigan
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Karen, the key words to me in your post are "personal decision" and "because I feel more modest and Mary-like in skirts and dresses."
You are not saying that skirts are more modest, just that they feel that way to you. You are not saying that all Catholic women (or all Christian women) are guilty of being immodest if they don't make the same personal decision. There's nothing confrontational about what you wrote. So I don't see what you wrote as judgmental at all, any more than the example I used of a woman giving up chocolate because it's personally a problem for her.
As I said at the beginning of this thread, I wear skirts too. I could probably count on one hand the number of times I've worn pants in the last five years. If I said I did it to be more modest and Mary-like I'd be lying through my teeth. If someone actually asked me why I don't wear pants, I'd have to answer in humble honesty "Because it helps me deal with the aftermath of gluttony on the petite female figure." If I wanted to wear clothing as an act of uncomfortable penance and sacrifice, I'd pick pants! Skirts are way more forgiving to a woman in my shape (i.e., round). 
And that's part of why I feel compelled to talk about this. I've found out that there are women out there who will automatically assume I "must" be holier than they are because they never see me in a pair of pants! May the good Lord spare me from such a grievous temptation to the sin of pride!
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Rebecca
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Red Cardigan wrote:
| You are not saying that skirts are more modest, just that they feel that way to you. You are not saying that all Catholic women (or all Christian women) are guilty of being immodest if they don't make the same personal decision. |
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This is not a black and white issue where we can say that anyone who says "skirts are more modest" than pants is judgemental. It is possible that there are levels of modesty. Certainly long pants are more modest than shorts (of the same tightness). Certainly longer looser skirts are more modest than short, tight ones. Are long, loose skirts more modest than modest pants? In my opinion, probably. Is it judgemental to believe so? No. It is my personal opinion and conviction. Am I sinning with pride to say so? That is only something each person can answer for themself. I don't feel prideful at all, just offering my reasons why I do it.
Frankly, I love pants. I think they are infinitely more comfortable than my long skirts. They are easier for me to move in and I feel younger and more attractive in them. I am heavy on top and skinny on the bottom. When I used to wear jeans, I looked thinner. That being said, I still wear the skirts because I think they are more modest. Do I do wear them so people will think I am more holy? No. I think people who I know probably think I am eccentric. It is a sacrifice for me to wear skirts unlike you, Red, who prefers them for your figure. My figure definitely looks better in pants but I feel more modest in skirts. I used to choose modest pants (I do believe there are modest pants-not tight or low cut at the waist) but I think the skirts are more modest. If that sounds prideful, I am sorry as it is not meant to be.
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LisaR
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It was mentioned to me by dh that during our time together in college in Steubenville, lots of the guys would talk about how skirts and remaining chaste were actually a stumbling block.
I used to be skirts/dresses only. Probably for a good 10 years or so. There are many reasons that I am not now. The last straw (though not a very serious one) is that where we live, there is a very large Christian Sect (11,000 members, founded in this area) where the women wear skirts. I got very tired of being confused as being "one of them" , as many of them homeschool as well.
The way that my family witnesses best is to "blend in " to a certain degree, while remaining modest, of course. For example, I love it when people say-" I never would have guessed you homeschooled "
or even "I never would have guessed you were Catholic".
I would rather not be noticed/judged either way by my mode of dress as a first impression, and many times that happened to me in skirts. I also struggled horribly with feeling "better than" those who did not wear skirts only...but I digress..
I usually wear khaki pants/capris year round, with a sweater/blouse for the top. If it was all about how I "feel" I most definately feel more put together and feminine in my current clothes. I always felt untucked/wrinkled/frumpy and actually non feminine in my skirts/dresses for the most part. I tried all kinds of combinations of skirts over the years. Sat is a major cleaning and running around day, and I will wear jeans then occasionally. Sundays are dresses or skirts.
I have not worn shorts since college, except occasionally to excercise.
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LisaR
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PS I do not do sleeveless either.
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Red Cardigan
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Rebecca, I appreciate what you wrote above; it helps so much to know where someone is coming from!
Here's where I think I disagree just slightly. You wrote, "Are long, loose skirts more modest than modest pants? In my opinion, probably. Is it judgemental to believe so? No."
First, most of the people I have problems with on this issue would say that there are NO modest pants. Period. End of sentence. And that's where I have the problem. Clearly you're not someone who thinks like this.
Second, we might say objectively that a long loose skirt is more modest than a pair of modest pants--but subjectively it entirely depends on the activity! Is a long, loose skirt going to be more modest attire for ice skating in New Hampshire on a December afternoon? Will the long, loose skirt preserve my sister's modesty as she crawls around the living room floor chasing baby boy number seven?
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Rebecca
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Red Cardigan wrote:
| Second, we might say objectively that a long loose skirt is more modest than a pair of modest pants--but subjectively it entirely depends on the activity! Is a long, loose skirt going to be more modest attire for ice skating in New Hampshire on a December afternoon? Will the long, loose skirt preserve my sister's modesty as she crawls around the living room floor chasing baby boy number seven? |
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I guess I still see the skirt, in both scenarios, as more modest but certainly less practical (but still very doable) by today's standards for the ice skating. Women used to do both activities(the first with proper layering) regularly in the past wearing skirts.
I always said that I would wear pants again if I needed to for practicality's sake. I just have not yet found anything that I cannot do in a skirt. (That being said, I have not tried long distance running as of late.  )
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Red Cardigan
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Rebecca wrote:
I always said that I would wear pants again if I needed to for practicality's sake. I just have not yet found anything that I cannot do in a skirt. (That being said, I have not tried long distance running as of late. ) |
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I guess snorkeling would be kind of tough, too... 
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I have certainly done my share of chasing little ones on the floor. And I have done it both in pants and skirts. I still find skirts to be WAY easier and more modest to do this in than skirts. Of course I'm not talking about a tight mini skirt here, but a longer flowing skirt. My rear does not feel as 'out there' when I am on my hands and knees, there is no issue of the skirt not covering everything, and I am not limited in my movement.
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Kathryn UK
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Red Cardigan wrote:
[QUOTE=Rebecca]
I always said that I would wear pants again if I needed to for practicality's sake. I just have not yet found anything that I cannot do in a skirt. (That being said, I have not tried long distance running as of late. ) |
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Rebecca, I find the same ... as a former jeans / trousers only girl I surprised myself by finding skirts both more comfortable and perfectly practical once I plucked up the courage to try them. I am not a skirts-only person, but I do now wear them most of the time by choice. My favourite clothes buys this year are both skirts (one is a long, green gypsy skirt - I bet you would love it  ). I started wearing skirts because I wanted to dress in a more feminine way rather than for modesty reasons.
Red Cardigan. I get exactly what you are saying (I think  ). From a purely logical standpoint there are holes in the argument that dresses / skirts are objectively more modest. Much of the rhetoric on this issue is subjective and does not stand up to logical examination. If it was a cut and dried, logically provably matter there would be no - or much less - argument. Wearing, or not wearing, skirts is not an article of faith.
I find it unbelievably rude that anyone would even comment on another person's choice to wear skirts, yet alone criticise it. That is just bizarre!
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Elizabeth
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Red Cardigan wrote:
Second, we might say objectively that a long loose skirt is more modest than a pair of modest pants--but subjectively it entirely depends on the activity! Is a long, loose skirt going to be more modest attire for ice skating in New Hampshire on a December afternoon? Will the long, loose skirt preserve my sister's modesty as she crawls around the living room floor chasing baby boy number seven?
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You're right. It's all "subjective." It is very much dependent upon a woman's disposition towards the topic, upon the counsel she has received, the community in which she lives, her relationship to the saints, her interior life. That is not to say a woman of either persuasion is more advanced than the other, just that they are in a different place than the other.
For instance, Red implied above that it is more appropriate to choose pants for skating in December in New England. We know that MUCH has been offered in the way of practical and friendly support to women who desire--for whatever reason--to make skirts the first thing they reach for in their closets in the morning, whatever the season or the activity. It would seem that it is objective to state that skating in December in New England calls for pants. But our history here on these boards does not bear that out.
Instead, our history speaks to a diversity of thought that embraces women wear skirts all the time--and even goes so far as not to persuade them otherwise but to offer them encouragement and practical advice. Our history (particularly in pictures) also shows us embracing (quite literally) that mama in jeans and flannel shirts with her hair up in a bandana and cheerful grin on her face.
This conversation is going in circles. Is it a good use of time to argue here against people who are "out there" disparaging pants or skirts or whatever? A search of "skirts" and "modesty" in the archives will provide much food for thought and material for argument's sake. At the end of the day (or the beginning as this case would be), each woman must decide for herself what to wear. More importantly, she must decide the spirit with which she wears it.
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chicken lady
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Lisa R nice post. I would love to hear more about Tim's thoughts. You posted most charitably 
I run a farm in skirts, I garden, haul wood, tend animals etc. skirts once you become use to them are not a big deal. That being said, I sometimes where jeans at home.
I know for a fact that many pant wearing women I know are much further along spiritually than I. I have never heard any women I know, who wears skirts suggest they are more holy. In fact quite the opposite. So I would have to say, if you ar feeling that way, I believe the problem is yours not the skirt wearer. We tend to feel convicted, them attack and assume others for ill motives that are not there. We all can fall victim to this. Perhaps we need to stop and look at ourselves and the root of our feelings, if I have a problem feeling judged, it is MY issue. If I am following the advice of my spiritual director, I have researched an issue, then I should be OK with my decisions.
As Anne stated this is very similiar to HS for many people, I hear moms often feeling judged by one of us HS moms. Now I am not judging them, are you???? So who's problem is it????
Have a peaceful and cool day.
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CAgirl4God
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I love reading all these posts.
I went from wearing not modest clothing to more modest clothing the older I got. (thinking way back to teen and young adult yrs lol).
I have started to add more skirts into my wardrobe... different kinds... and I def. agree with the following from Lisa LOL
My rear does not feel as 'out there' when I am on my hands and knees, there is no issue of the skirt not covering everything, and I am not limited in my movement.
I like that when I am going about my day my clothing isn't outlining every curve or hugging every inch of me, lol. and there is plenty of curve right now IYKWIM LOL.
thanks for all of your thoughts on this...
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Celeste
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I'm not sure what Tim was referring to (curious here, Lisa--hello, btw!), but I have (possibly) a similar story: I worked in a civil engineering office before college. Occasionally the engineers had to go "in the field" to observe a construction project. One day I noticed that one of the women engineers changed into slacks before leaving, so I asked her if it was a messy project site. She explained that on her first field trip she made the mistake of wearing a skirt. This proved very . . . distracting . . . to the construction workers, provoked gawks, whistles, etc. She added that it wasn't a short skirt, either, it was long; but it was a skirt, and that's all it took. From then on she wore pants in the field, and had no more problems.
Celeste, who remembers well but no longer owns Steubie U jumpers
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MrsKey
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I really and truly despise this topic of discussion. Nothing is ever "resolved" and everyone leaves feeling misunderstood, misrepresented and judged. It accomplishes very little and undermines a lot.
This is a non-issue for me because I have much bigger spiritual issues to work on at this point in my life. But I really hate seeing people suffer for the discussion of something that is not a precept of the Church, not a matter of doctrinal teaching or dogmatic decree.
For the record I don't usually wear skirts. They make me feel fat, dumpy, frumpy and totally unattractive as well as hindered in my movements, highly uncomfortable (fat thighs and skirts don't really mix in hot humid weather) and super self-conscious.
I have no problem with people who choose to wear dresses/skirts all the time. If it works for you and enriches your spiritual/interior life and isn't morally wrong then you should do it.
I have seen (not here but IRL and on other message boards) people tell non-skirt wearers that they are going to hell for not being modest. I've seen men tell women that they are immodest "modernists" for wearing pants. I've even had a woman tell me to my face that I was morally inferior for teaching my daughter that it is "OK" to wear pants.
I've seen pants wearers get pretty defensive/offensive on this topic as well.
I just don't see the point in rehashing what has been hashed out at length (I've seen this topic several times here) in such a circular argument. What's the point?
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Lisbet
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Carole, I don't know if anyone else feels this way, but I know in the past I have found this topic VERY helpful in my own journey to skirts. I have written about my 6 year waffle on this subject before, 5 of those years I felt the tug in my heart (before this board) and I was soooo very wishy washy and lukewarm in my convictions, even though my husband made it very clear to me what he thought was best and I knew what God was asking of me. I was a slave to what looked good, what others thought, and what I thought was comfort. In being part of these boards and discussions,(plus the many blog posts and links to articles) my eyes have been opened and my conviction made firm. I am almost embarrassed to say that it took the words from so many women here rather than the firm words of my husband and an obvious call on my heart from Our Lord. 
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Regarding a skirts-only argument
