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Karen E.
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| Posted: July 24 2007 at 9:16am | IP Logged
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Karen E. wrote:
In the fifth movie (I think in the book, too, though can't be sure), Professor Umbridge (a villain) says to the students, "You will learn all you need to know from these books -- you will learn all you need in order to pass your examinations. And, after all, isn't that what school is all about?"  |
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Cristina (JugglingPaynes) kindly found the exact quote for me. Thanks, Cristina (and btw, go check out her comics at her blog ... moms can relate ....)
Here's the actual quote from Book 5:
"Now, it is the view of the Ministry that a theoretical knowledge (of defense against the dark arts) will be more than sufficient to get you through your examination, which, after all, is what school is all about."
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Karen E.
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Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
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Barbara C.
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Jenn is correct when she says that much of the frenzy over the books is because they are being published in the present. I have heard the HP frenzy being compared to the anticipation for the publication of each section of Dickens' books.
Personally, I initially resisted the books because of all the hype, but once I read the first one I was hooked. This wasn't because of some supernatural magic. It was because Jo Rowling is the first author in a long time who has actually been able to surprise me. Usually the ending of each book completely surprised me, even though all the clues were there, and it was always surprising when a seemingly little event or character in one book had an enormous impact in a later one.
I think there are several important themes in the book, though. "Sometimes we have to choose between what is right and what is easy." "Love is the most powerful 'magic' in the world." "The world is not divided into people that are completely good or completely evil." The characters are flawed, just as all humans are flawed, and even many seemingly evil characters have redeeming qualities.
I think most of those kids who supposedly have used the books as a gateway to paganism would have ended up there through some other method anyway or into something just as damaging. These are kids whose parents aren't monitoring anything that they're doing as long as they're staying out of trouble with their school and the authorities. And I lived with a Wiccan in college who finally returned to Catholicism when she realized that most of the people in her coven were damaged people just looking for somewhere to belong.
I do think that I will wait until my kids are eleven before they are allowed to read the books since they do get more dark and intense as they progress. And we'll see how avid they will be to read them as the hype dies down. Plus, my older daughter (age 4 1/2) already knows that Harry survives, so that does eliminate some of the mystery.
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jugglingpaynes
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I agree with Karen and Jenn above.
I can still remember being so excited each time a relative presented me with the next Narnia book. I also remember thinking they were just written, having no real sense of time, even in sixth grade. Once I found them in the local bookstore, I remember using my savings to snatch up the remaining two or three I hadn't read yet. The following year I tackled Lewis' science fiction trilogy. Not bad for a kid who had previously hated reading. I just loved fantasy.
Kids tend to obsess over whatever they like. I can understand the fear when the obsession overpowers life, but in my situation, life was difficult (medical issues, parents arguing)so the last thing I wanted when I read was more of the same. Reading was my escape from painful life issues. When my daughter fell in love with reading, she was a history buff, so she devoured any historical fiction and biographies she could find.
That said, if I feared my kids would take a story too seriously, I would definitely shield them from it. I respect the right of each individual parent to make that decision.
P.S. Karen, thanks for your comment about my blog, it came in as I was writing this!
Peace and Laughter,
edited because I can't spell. 
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Cristina
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Matilda
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Cristina said:
"That said, if I feared my kids would take a story too seriously, I would definitely shield them from it. I respect the right of each individual parent to make that decision. "
This is exactly the reason why I am waiting until my son is older to read these books even though both Husband and I have read all 7. He tends to become obsessed with whatever he is reading. He reads and re-reads until he can practically quote the whole book. I would rather he be a little too old for them than too young.
But I am that careful about anything I introduce him to, not just HP.
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Caroline
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There was a sentence in the 7th book that seemed to be pro-homeschooling as well.
Is it possible to edit the thread title so that it shows that there are spoilers in this thread?
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ElisabethGrace
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Just wanted to pop back in to thank everyone for their posts. I've read all of the posts & am now trying to read Nancy Brown's book. I haven't yet decided what to do. My mind keeps coming back to the Scriptures & the catechism that reference witchcraft,etc.
I've given myself quite a headache! 
Again, thank you all so very much for this very thought-provoking discussion. Much, much food for thought.
Angela
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Dawn
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Caroline wrote:
There was a sentence in the 7th book that seemed to be pro-homeschooling as well.
Is it possible to edit the thread title so that it shows that there are spoilers in this thread?
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I remember there being a mention that not everyone sends their children to Hogwarts - some send them (?? somewhere else; I forget) and some "teach them at home." Something like that. Made me smile. 
I'll update the thread title. 
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Kathryn UK
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Karen E. wrote:
Here's the actual quote from Book 5:
"Now, it is the view of the Ministry that a theoretical knowledge (of defense against the dark arts) will be more than sufficient to get you through your examination, which, after all, is what school is all about." |
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That would be a pretty accurate take on the British school system . For example, they used to teach cookery in schools. Now it is Food Technology, with an examination that includes questions like "explain the functions of the ingredients in a whisked sponge cake". No need to know how to actually cook the cake 
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Kathryn
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JennyMaine
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"I am wondering how those of you who have decided to allow Harry Potter books in your family came to your decision."
First, I am very pleased at the nature of this thread. I love it that we can all share our opinions and what we've decided for our own families, with kindness and respect. Hooray, team! 
Well, your question is how people came to the decision of allowing the books. Is it ok to share how I came to the decision not to? If not, just disregard! (grin)
Before the whole HP craze, I read Michael O'Brien's book "A Landscape with Dragons." I really respect his opinions in this book and found myself in agreement with him. When I saw his interview on EWTN (an episode of The Abundant Life) about HP, I decided to trust his opinion. (I am not of the opinion that I need to read every book ever printed in order to make a decision on whether or not they are right for my family. There is wisdom in counsel from trusted sources - for instance, I don't need to read Mein Kempf to know it isn't my cup of tea!)
Further, a close friend taught in our local Catholic school and had many first hand accounts of the problems caused by the books at the school (students being drawn into withcraft, students trying to cast spells on the teachers they didn't like, etc.) And when I recently took over the volunteer position of parish librarian, there was a videotape of the above-mentioned The Abundant Life episode. I was told by the former librarian to hold it back on the "controversial" book shelf because the parish school promotes the book, so it wouldn't look right to give people access to a contrary opinion. (!!)
Finally, I am often shocked by the hostility and anger which immediately surfaces from HP fans when given a chance to discuss the issue (I'm speaking of personal friends and family members here). I have never, ever initiated a discussion of this. Yet, if it comes up in conversation that we don't read these - wow, watch out! Frankly, anything that has to be defended so hotly is suspect in my eyes. It's really creepy, the intensity of their opinions. . .it's almost like the HP Nazis won't rest in peace until they force me to accept these books. I've never run into that with another book series. Ever. I mean, can you imagine someone getting hot under the collar if you happen to mention that you don't let your kids read the Little House series because you think Charles was an idiot for dragging them across creation when they had a perfectly good home in Wisconsin?!? They'd think you're a nut, yes, but they really wouldn't enter into an emotional tyrade about how you really, really need to read these books.
One Catholic homeschool family I know (I may have shared this in another post) are huge fans of HP. While at their house one day, I couldn't help but notice that the oldest child was reading through a stack of books on wizardry and casting spells. I went through this phase in jr high way back when myself, and it drew me into the whole astrology, tarot card thing in my early 20s. This isn't a path I want my children to end up on. Way leads on to way.
So, that's how I made my decision. I wish you peace with discerning yours!
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--JennyMaine, Mom to Catherine (17) and Sam (15) "The countenance is a reflection of the soul. You should always have a calm and serene countenance." -- Therese of Lisieux
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Cay Gibson
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Caroline wrote:
There was a sentence in the 7th book that seemed to be pro-homeschooling as well.
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Dawn wrote:
I remember there being a mention that not everyone sends their children to Hogwarts - some send them (?? somewhere else; I forget) and some "teach them at home." Something like that. Made me smile.
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Does anyone know where Rowling's children go to school? I think the last ones might still be very young. What about her older dd? Has she ever hsed?
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Cay Gibson
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Dawn
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Cay, I'm not sure about Rowling's children - that is an interesting question!
Here is the homeschool-friendly quote (p. 210, chapter 11):
Quote:
| "Attendance is now compulsory for every young witch and wizard," he replied. "That was announced yesterday. It's a change, because it was never obligatory before. Of course, nearly every witch and wizard in Britain has been educated at Hogwarts, but their parents had the right to the teach them at home or send them abroad if they preferred. This way, Voldemort will have the whole Wizarding population under his eye from a young age." |
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Kathryn UK
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Cay Gibson wrote:
| Does anyone know where Rowling's children go to school? I think the last ones might still be very young. What about her older dd? Has she ever hsed? |
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Not that I know of. The homeschooling community here is small enough that it would probably be common knowledge if she did (or had), though I'm sure she guards her children's privacy very carefully.
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Kathryn
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Dawn
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I just wanted to mention that today and tomorrow, JK Rowling will be interviewed by Meredith Viera on the Today show. There will be a third interview Sunday night on Dateline NBC.
I believe it is her only American interview. Here is the Today website link.
Also, she has apparently said she will write an encyclopedia of all the characters sometime in the future, with back stories and futures. Story here. That would be interesting! 
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~Rachel~
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Dawn wrote:
Also, she has apparently said she will write an encyclopedia of all the characters sometime in the future, with back stories and futures. Story here. That would be interesting! |
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Now THAT would answer some of the questions I had regarding the "19 years later" lives of Harry, Hermione and the rest
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Caroline
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~Rachel~ wrote:
| Now THAT would answer some of the questions I had regarding the "19 years later" lives of Harry, Hermione and the rest |
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This article has a few more details that didn't make it into the epilogue.
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Red Cardigan
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JennyMaine wrote:
Finally, I am often shocked by the hostility and anger which immediately surfaces from HP fans when given a chance to discuss the issue (I'm speaking of personal friends and family members here). I have never, ever initiated a discussion of this. Yet, if it comes up in conversation that we don't read these - wow, watch out! Frankly, anything that has to be defended so hotly is suspect in my eyes. It's really creepy, the intensity of their opinions. . .it's almost like the HP Nazis won't rest in peace until they force me to accept these books. I've never run into that with another book series. Ever. I mean, can you imagine someone getting hot under the collar if you happen to mention that you don't let your kids read the Little House series because you think Charles was an idiot for dragging them across creation when they had a perfectly good home in Wisconsin?!? They'd think you're a nut, yes, but they really wouldn't enter into an emotional tyrade about how you really, really need to read these books.
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I just wanted to address this portion of your post. I'm not a huge HP fan; I've read books 1-6 and will probably read the seventh, but I'm not in any hurry and don't care that I already know most of what "happens."
I read the books to see for myself if they were evil, occult, etc. I came to the conclusion that they're not. Magic in the HP world is not anything like actual occult magic, and it would be just as easy for a child to get interested in Latin as in the occult from reading these books (particularly with the guidance of good parents, who shouldn't be letting any real occult influences in their homes regardless of what may have triggered a child's interest!).
Now, I also came to the minority opinion that these books are o.k., not only from an "are they o.k. to read" perspective, but from a literary perspective. They're o.k., period. They're not great works of timeless fiction, they're not extremely well-written, and I find Rowling to be an aggravating and frustrating writer. (I know I should read book 7 before pronouncing definitively, but that's my honest take on 1-6.)
Still, with the faint praise and fainter interest I have in the books, I've been told by others that Rowling is evil, that she wants to corrupt children, that she's a devil worshiper or at least the tool of the devil, that there's some diabolical influence at work in the books and their success, that even reading the books places you under the influence of the devil and nothing short of burning them will free you from this, that they are clearly designed to increase the practice of Satanism among innocent children, and that anyone who doesn't immediately recognize this and agree with this is probably already lost.
So I have found myself getting a little "hot under the collar" when I get told by someone that they don't read the books; but only if they ALSO tell me what I just wrote above, and then expect me to fall sobbing penitently at their feet and agree that Rowling and the books are evil, and that I should seek immediate exorcism to remove the influence of these devil-tomes from my life. If someone says they don't much like that sort of book, or that they're really careful about books with magic elements, I'm going to shrug and say, hey, we all have to decide for ourselves, and it should be up to each family whether they want to read these or not. But if someone tries to convince me that they "know" that Rowling and the books are evil, I'm going to defend the woman on the grounds that merely writing about fictional witches shouldn't open a person to such terrible calumny and detraction, especially considering that all we "know" about her in this regard is that she's a Christian!
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MrsKey
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I have read all 7 books and I thoroughly enjoyed them. I have always enjoyed the fantasy and science fiction genres.
HP is an engaging, entertaining story that is quite well told. Better written that a lot of current children's and young adult's literature. Not as well written as others.
My daughter has read the first 4 books so far. It's quite funny actually. I bought books 1-3 (before 4 was released) in anticipation of the day that my daughter would be ready and want to read them. That was years ago. And she's just now getting around to reading them. She's not "that into them" as kids would say. I, on the other hand, got quite interested.
Not interested enough to dress up like Prof. McGonagall and stand in line at midnight ... but interested enough to finish the book in about 9 hours of reading.
I don't care one way or the other about people who do or don't read these books. Just like I don't get bent out of shape when people tell me that they don't like my all time favourite book The Old Man and the Sea by E. Hemmingway. Or when they tell me that they loved my all time least favourite book Crime and Punishment.
What I do care about greatly are the people who have told me that I am (the following are real statements that have been made to me both online and IRL about reading the books):
* going to Hell for reading HP.
* guilty of child abuse for letting my daughter read HP.
* not a "good Catholic" because I read about "the occult".
* supporting a the work of the devil by buying HP.
As long as I'm not hearing that type of comment I'm cool with whatever a parent decides to do in their family. We each make value judgments every single day in choosing what we will and will not allow for our children. That is our job as parents.
Perhaps I have been (not here as this is my first comment on this topic) a bit forceful in my own defense on this topic at times. But that may be because I've been called some pretty nasty things ("child abuser" sticks out most prevalently though "satanist" wasn't pleasant either) because I choose to read HP and allow my daughter (when she shows interest) to read them as well.
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Carole
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asplendidtime
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Dear JennyinMaine,
Thankyou for expressing yourself with such maturity and gentleness, I really appreciate when everyone feels safe (here) to share their opinion. I feel just as you do.
I read through the thread on H.P. from Amy Wellbourne's blog(which Cay referred me to), and the lengthy comment section. I was really put-off by the comments in which pro-HP people, just absolutely ridiculed others for their "unenlightened ideas". To be very honest they are accusing Michael D. O'Brien of being wrong, sadly they weren't saying that he's entitled to his opinion.
It is too bad that people are nasty on either side, I am horrified that someone would have the nerve to accuse someone else that they were going to Hell for reading it. 4Real is a really nice forum.
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aussieannie
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7smallones wrote:
| 4Real is a really nice forum. |
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This is so true Rebecca.
I have thought about this, the why's and reasons for this and I believe that when you have a prayerboard as the overwhelmingly most frequented board on the forum there is a unity there that cannot be developed a sincerely as through prayer for each other.
The other big factor is admin girls who are awesome in their godly manner in sorting out difficulties from time to time. I've have on a few occasions now, witnessed great wisdom, charity & decisiveness in their management, an inspiring combination!
I would be wary of discussing HP in other settings (online & real life) but I feel here it can be discussed and different views expressed.
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Martha
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I own and have read all 7 and we think they are great.
It is a tale of good vs evil, and that's not supposed to be a pretty tale.
I've let my children read them. Frankly, I thought it was rather tame, but to each parent their own censorship line.
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Catholicism & HP (contains spoilers)
