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Leonie
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BTW, Jimmy Akin's comments offer an explanation that the Pope has not definitively spoken out against the HP books....Just FYI - Macmom also posted the link above....
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msclavel
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I read them all up until the 4th one and then I freaked a bit and got rid of them and swore the children would NEVER read them, nor would I finish the series. Even threw away the hardcover editions of each! In the meantime dh, took the age appropriate kids to the each of the movies (sigh).
And now, after much prayer and discernment I have had a complete change of heart and mind. Several of us in the house are reading through the books (dh is reading the last- and I might add, this is the man who hates reading in general and never read as a child).
I am so pleased to see Nancy Brown's book. I love the idea of being able to read these books with a "Catholic mind" and pull out the best of them and open up discussion with my kids.
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JennGM
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Macmom wrote:
Oh, and I like Jimmy Akin's rebuttal to the Lifesite article on the pope's "judgement" on the HP books. Two sides to this story.
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He also has some follow-up from an interview from the Vatican Radio. Very interesting.
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chicken lady
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It is nice to have a good dialog about such matters. It is what I am attempting to teach my children.
Cay and Helen, I agree with you about some of the "classics" I hope you know I was using that term rather liberally.
MOlly
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Elizabeth
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Red Cardigan wrote:
I'm not planning to let my kids read them until they are much older, but not because of the witchcraft! The truth is, my poor sweet homeschooled kids would be shocked beyond belief at how nasty and mean-spirited kids in school can be to each other (and that's true with or without wands and silly spells)!  |
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This is pretty much my take on HP. My first child read the first in the series when he was old enough to pick it apart and write a negative review . My second child was even older before he read them. Two summers ago, he read all the books in order. He's a child who doesn't like to read and for whom reading came very late. He was 13 that summer. He'd read Narnia and LOR already and he was able to really discuss nuances of HP in light of Lewis and Tolkein. He's entertained by being annoyed by Rowling if that makes any sense  . Both boys are also old enough to have witnessed how cruel children can be to one another (and, unfortunately, they've witnessed it in homeschool settings)so they see how Rowling is writing from life even in fantasy.
My third child has no interest in a 750 page book.
Personally, I don't like the genre. I'd much prefer a every-summer binge of the entire Anne of Green Gables series  .
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Mary G
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Elizabeth wrote:
Red Cardigan wrote:
| I'm not planning to let my kids read them until they are much older, but not because of the witchcraft! The truth is, my poor sweet homeschooled kids would be shocked beyond belief at how nasty and mean-spirited kids in school can be to each other (and that's true with or without wands and silly spells)! |
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This is pretty much my take on HP. My first child read the first in the series when he was old enough to pick it apart and write a negative review . My second child was even older before he read them. Two summers ago, he read all the books in order. He's a child who doesn't like to read and for whom reading came very late. He was 13 that summer. He'd read Narnia and LOR already and he was able to really discuss nuances of HP in light of Lewis and Tolkein. He's entertained by being annoyed by Rowling if that makes any sense . Both boys are also old enough to have witnessed how cruel children can be to one another (and, unfortunately, they've witnessed it in homeschool settings)so they see how Rowling is writing from life even in fantasy.
My third child has no interest in a 750 page book.
Personally, I don't like the genre. I'd much prefer a every-summer binge of the entire Anne of Green Gables series . |
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Excellent thoughts ladies -- so many GREAT books .... so little time ....
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Matilda
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This has to be the kindest and gentlest discussion I have ever read among Catholics/Christians regarding a topic that can be very divisive. Bravo ladies!!!
Regarding the original question: How did we come to the decision we came to?
You have to know your family, know your children, and know yourself. Read them for yourself with an open mind and then decide.
Every family, every person is going to have sensitivities that others don't. My children HATED Charlotte's Web because the spider died. (The fact that she shares a name with their mother probably didn't help.) Not a good story for them.
I don't allow my children to read Greek Myths because my fascination with them as a young child bordered on NeoPaganism ( a very serious threat and danger to a soul) and even though my children have a much better sacramental life than I did, D'aulaire's Book of Greek Myths still creeps me out.
That said, I have read all 7 HP books and while I don't consider them great literature, I have determined that they would not be harmful for my children to read when they have reached an appropriate age and maturity level to handle the themes of the books.
As to the hype surrounding this series vs. others... sure there is more because parents today are more indulgent than they were in years past, even the most strict parent by today's standard would be seen as lenient compared to the average of old. Most parents of that day and age still believed that children should be seen and not heard. But can anyone here say how the public reacted to the LOTR or Narnia series when they were first published? Today, we have the benefit of years of study, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were met with similar criticisms when they first made their appearance.
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Dawn
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I have read all the HP books (just finished #7) and have enjoyed them wholeheartedly. I have also read them with my oldest who is 12 and who reads A LOT. He enjoys them too, but right now he is reading The Return of the King (absolutely enthralled) and will read #7 at some point. He's in no rush. (Which is good because *I* kind of rushed through it to get to the finale and now I want to go back and absorb. )
The books are really fun and in each one the underlying lesson = Good is stonger than Evil, Love is stronger than Hate. You root for the good guys who resist the dark magic; you loathe the bad guys who don't.
I am not concerned about my son (or his younger brothers when their time comes) learning anything improper. We all take them for what they are - stories. Well written, enjoyable stories. 
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Cay Gibson
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Here's my review on Nancy's Brown book with a warning about Pullman's tagged on there.
Seems, from what I've read, Pullman is an excellent writer but his agenda is no good, while Rowling isn't as good a writer but her agenda stands on the Christian teaching that good must fight evil to overcome it.
I guess we should be glad that mass pandemonium is happening over the HP books versus the Pullman books.
In the end it is each person's tastes, likes and dislikes as to what comes through the house. Each family's agenda rather than the author's.
Great discussion, everyone.
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sewcrazy
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I allow them.
8 years ago my oldest was in the hospital in traction for over a month. We were given a copy of the first book, and he and I enjoyed reading it aloud during those trying days. He and I have read each of the books since together. We attend the midnight book parties and saw the last movie at midnight on the IMAX. We always discuss them.
When we were given the first book I was at a different place in my faith journey and didn't even question the books. I have since matured in my faith, and have some small concerns about some themes in the books. But we address those issues as we read them.
I don't let my younger children read them or see the movies. My 2nd son was allowed to start reading them at 11. I am not sure he actually likes them, but wants to be part of the discussions.
Yes there are definitely better things to be reading. But personally, I need to interperse my challenging reading with bits of fluff. To us, Harry Potter is like cotton candy for the brain. You wouldn't want to consume it on a weekly basis, but as an occasional treat, we don't see the harm in it.
LeeAnn
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jugglingpaynes
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We like the books.
I completely understand that these books are not for everyone. Not because I think they are bad, but because not everyone likes this particular genre. I was hesitant myself about reading them, being a bit of a book snob. But I think it is a mistake to view these books in the purely fantasy sense. It's not quite that black and white, and to consider it in strictly fantasy terms is to skim the surface. I would consider them well written mysteries that happen to have a fantasy setting.
Ms. Rowling does an excellent job of setting it up this way. She scatters clues to help solve individual mysteries in each book, and then a combination of clues are meant to help the reader figure out how the villain is to be defeated. My daughter spent last week reading through all the books, picking them apart, deciphering Latin terms (Rowling likes to use Latin, she also uses names whose meanings describe the character.)
I like to look at things from all different angles. I challenge my kids to look deeper for hidden meaning and parallels in anything they read or watch. I wrote in an old blog post about how I view HP as a cautionary tale of allowing Nazi style hate to rise again. It's at the end of this post. I will add that book 7 (so far) continues this trend.
We are all reading book 7 together right now (except for my youngest). We are taking it very slow, discussing it chapter by chapter, and enjoying it immensely. Did you know Rowling says some interesting things about state run schools that make me wonder if she would like to homeschool?
I guess my feeling would be that a child will get more out of anything they read with active reading. Because every child is different and there are some very intense topics and situations presented in these books, I agree that it would be the parents' job to decide whether to allow a child to read it or not. My son is very sensitive and has a harder time dealing with death (although a scene in book 7 helped him with his feelings over the recent death of our pastor). I waited longer to allow him to read the series and we still read ahead of him to prepare him for anything sad.
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JenniferS
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We allow them, but dh and I have read each one first. Our dd is the only one of our children old enough to read them. Her younger brotehr is showing an interest.
Cay, I also read the Ruth Chew books in second and third grade. I loved them!
Jen
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We've also read all of HP, and have thoroughly enjoyed the series together (not my youngest, though, who is only five.)
I initially approached with trepidation and caution. I heard the good and the bad. I decided that I couldn't make an informed judgment without reading them for myself. I then previewed, made decisions about who could read what and at what age, then we did them as read-alouds, and we talked about everything. In that context, we've delighted in them.
In some ways, I agree that they are not *great* literature (she has a great love for adverbs), but I also think that Rowling's writing has grown and matured with each book. The seventh book is probably, in many ways, the best. It is also *drenched* in Christian symbolism, in my opinion.
Nancy Brown does a good job of talking about a lot of the symbolism and themes in her new book (my only wish was that she'd given many more examples, but she didn't want to spoil the plot for anyone.)
The stories -- and I think perhaps all seven of them must be taken as a whole, in order to see the full story and her entire point -- point to self-sacrifice as the ultimate act of love, and Book 7 had me in tears in several places.
But, no spoilers from me.
I agree that this is a lovely, civilized discussion, and I'm so glad to see that.
I also agree about how we all have very different sensitivities, and I fully respect everyone's right to decide for themselves whether or not the books are "right" or "wrong" for them.
God bless!
Karen
(who is tired from staying up too late to read)
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Karen E.
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jugglingpaynes wrote:
I was hesitant myself about reading them, being a bit of a book snob. But I think it is a mistake to view these books in the purely fantasy sense ...
Ms. Rowling does an excellent job of setting it up this way. She scatters clues to help solve individual mysteries in each book, and then a combination of clues are meant to help the reader figure out how the villain is to be defeated. My daughter spent last week reading through all the books, picking them apart, deciphering Latin terms (Rowling likes to use Latin, she also uses names whose meanings describe the character.)
I like to look at things from all different angles. I challenge my kids to look deeper for hidden meaning and parallels in anything they read or watch. I wrote in an old blog post about how I view HP as a cautionary tale of allowing Nazi style hate to rise again. It's at the end of this post. I will add that book 7 (so far) continues this trend.
We are all reading book 7 together right now (except for my youngest). We are taking it very slow, discussing it chapter by chapter, and enjoying it immensely. Did you know Rowling says some interesting things about state run schools that make me wonder if she would like to homeschool? |
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Yes, yes, yes to all of the above!
The analogy to Nazi Germany is really clear throughout the series.
In the fifth movie (I think in the book, too, though can't be sure), Professor Umbridge (a villain) says to the students, "You will learn all you need to know from these books -- you will learn all you need in order to pass your examinations. And, after all, isn't that what school is all about?"
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lapazfarm
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Karen E. wrote:
In the fifth movie (I think in the book, too, though can't be sure), Professor Umbridge (a villain) says to the students, "You will learn all you need to know from these books -- you will learn all you need in order to pass your examinations. And, after all, isn't that what school is all about?" |
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At that point in the movie my ds turned to me and said "Now SHE is scary!"
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amyable
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lapazfarm wrote:
At that point in the movie my ds turned to me and said "Now SHE is scary!" |
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On the books - take this with a grain of salt because I have not read them myself, and will not be. I had too much experience with the occult as a child/teen, including many "harmless" books, and it has effected me negatively even to this day. I have seen too many references to these books as "doorways" to that kind of lifestyle, and can't allow the damage that was done to me to be done to my kids.
And because I can't allow myself to read them first, and my husband would faint away if I asked him to read a 750 page book , we can't preview them for the kids ourselves.
I think the "cult-like" almost insatiable appetite for these books bothers me ... it just doesn't seem, I don't know...healthy?
I hope I'm expressing myself gently. I don't judge anyone else who chooses to read these.
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Matilda
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I completely understand Amy and that is exactly the point I was trying to make with my post above. Someone who has had a drinking problem not only has to refrain from consuming alcohol but has to guard themselves against even simple entertainments like watching Casablanca.
For me, the gods of ancient Greece and Rome were way more than just a fascination. I actually was bothered by the strange importance placed on them from some homeschooling gurus who insist on introducing them as early as four and five before a child really had a chance to become firm in their Faith, before they could even read! It seemed rather "unhealthy" to me, but I had to accept that it was my experience that colored my reaction to them and it had nothing to do with the books or authors themselves.
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Rachel May
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We have enjoyed the books. The first 3 were good adventures--not without negative elements but without the darkness that comes in the later books. Bill and I read the first 3 to the boys a few years ago (they may have been 6?). The boys were focussed on the adventure and the struggle of good over evil and the humor, not the magic or the lying or the meanness. That's very similar to how I read books. Gloss over the bad stuff.
The later books will have to wait until they are bigger because, IMO, they are much darker and gruesome, but the boys don't seem to mind. They know enough about the series to satisfy their curiosity without having a burning desire to go on.
They aren't allowed to listen to the audio books because I think they would spend too much time listening to them , and they aren't ready for the movies yet, which I don't mind because I thought they were really boring.
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JennGM
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amyable wrote:
| I think the "cult-like" almost insatiable appetite for these books bothers me ... it just doesn't seem, I don't know...healthy? |
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I think some of that frenzy is just a big marketing push. But also, because the books are being written in the present, there's an impatience to read what happens next.
I've seen voracious readers dive into many different series (and I'm guilty of that, too). My nephew can't get enough of Redwall. And then the LOTR, Narnia... Besides those series, my sisters and I couldn't get enough of the Anne of Green Gables, Little House, Nancy Drew, Trixie Belden, etc. The difference is that they are already written and published. We didn't need to wait for the sequel.
And then my reading takes me on my own personal rabbit trails or unit studies. When I find an author I enjoy, I want to devour everything they wrote, find out all about them. That's just the way I read. I would call it more reading binges.
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Karen E.
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JennGM wrote:
I've seen voracious readers dive into many different series (and I'm guilty of that, too). My nephew can't get enough of Redwall. And then the LOTR, Narnia... Besides those series, my sisters and I couldn't get enough of the Anne of Green Gables, Little House, Nancy Drew, Trixie Belden, etc. The difference is that they are already written and published. We didn't need to wait for the sequel.
And then my reading takes me on my own personal rabbit trails or unit studies. When I find an author I enjoy, I want to devour everything they wrote, find out all about them. That's just the way I read. I would call it more reading binges. |
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This is just what I was going to say, Jenn. Nicely put.
Yes, the "agony" of waiting to find out what happens next is part of the frenzy. My kids are totally different after reading this one -- we all know now how it all ends, so there's no more speculating, wondering, and waiting. I think the books will remain popular, but the craziness of the feeding frenzy stuff.
And Amy, your concern is just what I meant, and what I think Matilda so nicely touched on, when I said I respect each individual's need and right to make the decision about reading. A good, long, happy life can be lived without ever reading Harry Potter.
As far as the darkness of the later books, yes, they are, and we did indeed take them slowly. My oldest only recently read complete books for herself (prior to that, we'd done read-alouds, and she'd skipped parts that I told her were too dark -- she actually likes that I give her these warnings and guidance, so that's helpful.)
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Catholicism & HP (contains spoilers)
