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JennGM
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onemoretracy wrote:
I have loved reading MRN books and I have to admit I was scandalized and sad to read Elizabeth's initial post in this thread. 
I am particularly interested in the whole concept of living the liturgical year. Learning about it through HS this year has been a catalyst for forming a new apostolate where groups of women meet and discuss ways to implement some liturgical ideas into their homes.
I think the main thing for me to remember is that all of these beautiful traditions and feasts are not the ends, they are just the means. I need to remember to constantly keep the end picture (eternity in Heavan with Our Lord) in my mind and heart as I am instilling these traditions in our home and sharing them with other mothers and wives. Flexibility in expectations, overwhelming charity and understanding are crucial for me to keep the big picture in mind. I need to remind myself over and over that my spiritual journey is unique and it is foolish of me to try to control or judge how others live out their calling from God.
The liturgical year and is a gift, a tool given to us by Christ through the Church to learn to love and live with more holiness. But again, it is only a means, one of many that we have been given. I don't want to place all of my eggs in one basket here so to speak! 
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Tracy, I had some thoughts in this vein this morning. In some ways "living the liturgical year" has become a label to tie in all the prayers, traditions, crafts, activities to bring the Liturgical Calendar to life. All are good and wonderful, but if you trim down to the actual reality, that phrase "living the liturgical year" is simply uniting the family/domestic church with the Liturgy of the Church, particularly the Mass. It can be simple or elaborate, whatever the family can do, but bare bones and MOST IMPORTANT is the uniting of one's soul with the Mass.
The Church provides a Liturgical Calendar with seasons that imitate life's changing and repeating pattern, and constant focus of Christ's Paschal Mysteries as the central focus. The ebb and flow reflect our lives, where we need renewal, preparation of the soul, growing times and times of celebration.
Lately I feel a soul tug to keep things simple in this area. I want to make sure that what activities I bring will have a spiritual focus. If it doesn't bring interior reflection on the feast at some point, it's just busywork. I think many are overwhelmed with ALL the possibilities one can do. Just remember NO ONE does it all at every feast day every year. It just doesn't happen.
Too much blabbing...and I'm so tired it probably doesn't make sense...
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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helene
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I am just now noticing this thread. I am sister to Sue Temple (and Danielle Bean) and daughter to the lovely couple pictured in the link of Elizabeth's initial post in this thread......I am so humbled to think that anyone would "wonder about the holiness" of my simple family! My family was large but very "everyday" in most ways. My parents did not have the money to put us in a private or Catholic school. Nobody had even heard of homeschooling in our area. We all went to Public School for K to 12th grade. Our "Religion" however, was always taught to us at home, one formal lesson a week per child, young kids with Mom, old kids with Dad. That was it. We did live our Faith, but it was simple and inward and not talked about at every waking moment. We knew it was the most important thing we had and the only thing to hold onto if you any strength at all. I think this was due mostly to my parents' example and prayer life. Heaven knows (literally) it's not because of us kids. We grew up in a very modest ranch-style house with one tiny bathroom and a somewhat finished basement. My mother used to have dreams of finding rooms in the house she never knew existed! My father had a doctorate in philosophy in the early 70s and we were eaking out our existence on the teacher's salary he was making at a local college. He was and is a truly self-educated man, deeply interested and fascinated by any and all subject matters in season and out. We kids call them "phases" of his. But they are more than that. They are intense, honest-to-goodness desires to know everything about a subject. It is a real movement of soul! He has been through phases about Aristotle, St. Thomas, Plato, Shakespeare, the Fathers of the Church, the Civil War, World War II, tree identification (if he was interested in the tree outside the bank he would climb to the very top to get a pinecone, much to our embarrassment), animals and bugs of all kinds, French, German, stamp collecting, Purgatory, Heaven and Hell....all sorts of things. He would study these subjects intensely for several months and then let them go for awhile. We knew that if he was interested in it, it was worth being interested in. And he was always interested in his Faith. He found his Faith when he was 14...he was a boy scout and they told him he should go to Church on Sunday in order to be a good boy. So, in typical form, he went to the library and read all kinds of books on all kinds of Faiths and the only one that made clear, unmistakable sense to him was the Catholic religion. He has been learning about it and holding on to it as an overarching "phase" ever since. This is powerful testimony for children. He also, I must say, without ever missing a beat, no matter what, alone or with others, no matter how tired or sick or discouraged he might have been at night... said his rosary for all of us. He has an unshakable devotion to Mary and I think she really does grant him special favors.
That said, my mother was and is the most wonderful and hardest working person you could ever know. I think God put her here to give comfort to others and see them through terrifying times and put them safely on the other side of those times. She has done that over and over and over for each of her children (and many other people, too). She has an uncanny way of quietly saying and doing the right thing and start picking up the pieces time and again for broken people and broken hearts, for people who are lost, tired, forgotten, or people who have been sad for too long. And I remember her telling me specifically once as she was giving me the Facts of Life ( I think I was 11 or 12): "Many people tell their daughters that they will turn them out of the house if they become pregnant before they get married...but I just can't say it! I would be desperately disappointed if that should happen but I want to be a place for you to turn to whenever you need help, however difficult it may be, whatever it is, come home." We never had the pregnancy problem but many of us have had to "come home" in one way or another. She gave us a security that I think teens and young adults need. She never made elaborate crafts or poured over curriculum. She never had a Jesse tree or special crafts for Advent. Our Christmas tree was usually the last one on the lot at Shaw's and was often ugly, but heartfelt and magical all the same. She just did the hard work that needed to be done at the time it needed doing and was a silent and lasting example to us all. I know, though, that she would say she just didn't know she even COULD homeschool back then......she thrills in the way her grandchildren are being raised (homeschooled) and is satisfied that her children have better than she had to give to her own children. She is a significant source of support for me, though she pains in wishing she had been able to do the same. I will die a thousand deaths when I lose her (hopefully not for 50 years), but I can't wait to see her splendor in Heaven because I know she has "loved much" and her reward will be great.
That's it. That's the secret. Great parents doing simple but sometimes hard things with consistency and prayer. They still live in that small house and the 9 of us with OUR kids still descend upon this tiny place for the Holidays and swell its walls with life and joyful noise again and again. Mom wanted to sell it once but my brothers (grown men, mind you) threw a hissy fit and really pulled hard at her heartstrings and basically did not let her do it. I was part of that house and it still lives with me. I am grateful to have experienced its love.
Helene Froula
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Elizabeth
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Helene,
Thank you so, so much for adding to our conversation.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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JennGM
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Beautiful, Helene! Thank you for sharing all that. Your parents did a great job!
Your dad sounds a little bit like Frank Gilbreth, with his learning binges. 
Isn't it funny about the brothers in the family who are most attached to family roots, like houses? My husband is the same way about his family homestead.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Family in Feast and Feria
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alicegunther
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Elizabeth wrote:
But who can we look to as proven mentors? I admit to being a bit skeptical of Maria von Trapp and Mary Reed Newland. Something went awry there...They lived the liturgical year. Faith was integral to their lives; it was the fabric of the family. And yet I don't think either of them has Catholic grandchildren. We've learned much from the lessons of these ladies' books, but I can't help but feel that there are some really crucial lessons we're missing. |
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I have often asked myself this same question. I was so crestfallen when we went to the Trapp Family Lodge and discovered that none of Maria's family was Catholic!
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JennyMaine
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Hmmm. . .this is an interesting thread. I think we have to always remember that just because someone's children aren't faithful as adults, it doesn't mean the parents are no longer worthy of imitation. We all know parents who seem to do things "right" and have children who turn out less than stellar in their spirituality.
In spite of all the good Catholic education and devotion we put into our kids as "input". . . does not faith remain a gift from God? Isn't it possible for any of us to fall away at any moment? (There, but for the grace of God, go I.)
I really think that Mark 4:1-9 applies to our children. We might sacrifice much and put in years of love and training into our children, only to have these seeds not bear fruit. It makes us catch our breath, doesn't it? But it doesn't mean we give up and don't run the race to completion. Rather, it simply means we can choose not to condemn others or ourselves if homeschooling does not produce a good Catholic adult out of every child. It is not a magic pill that promises us a faithful family. We cannot control other people. We can set a goal of faithfully teaching our children, but not a goal that they all turn out holy -- that is a desire, but it can never be goal because it can be thwarted. KWIM?
There's a lovely little chapter on this is in Luanne Shackelford's book "A Survivor's Guide to Home Schooling" (a Protestant book which is warmly written and full of great advice). The chapter is called, "But, Lord! I Homeschooled Him!" Here's a quote:
"What I am trying to say is that home schooling does not guarantee that your child will turn out well. The outcome of your children does not depend on what you do, but rather on what you are. Delight yourself in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of your heart. Do you desire Godly children? Delight yourself in the Lord!. . .We have to do our very best, and then let God do the rest. . .we must understand that we have all learned some things the hard way and that our kids are no exception. If we are striving to walk in obedience to the Lord, we can let our children go when the time comes and trust God to work in their lives as He has worked in ours." (p.162)
Isn’t it nice to know that God will be working on my children for many years after they are adults? I know He certainly worked on me - and I did not come from a family of super faithful Catholics. But the seed was planted and in time, when the soil had been tilled in many painful ways, something sprung up!
I tend to look at this way -- I have an amazing Catholic aunt who is a lay Carmelite. She raised seven children under very trying circumstances, being married to an alcoholic. If all her children are faithful Catholics today, does that mean I should go out and marry a raging alcoholic in order to increase my children’s faith? No, of course not. It is impossible to even discern all that goes into a life and into raising children - much less replicate what appears at this moment to be a success in another family. Rather than looking at each other, or other Catholics that we think may have "failed" in hindsight, we need to look at Christ - it’s His image that we and our children are ultimately trying to conform to. (in other words, Elizabeth, if some of your children stray from the faith over the next few years, we won’t throw out your book and consider your advice no longer valid!)
Is it possible that God knows some of our children won't be with us in paradise, but this whole exercise of motherhood and home educating is simply for our own sanctification?
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--JennyMaine, Mom to Catherine (17) and Sam (15) "The countenance is a reflection of the soul. You should always have a calm and serene countenance." -- Therese of Lisieux
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helene
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I think JennyMaine, above, is right. It is important to remember that God made our children with free will (rats!) and Faith is a gift (so is free will, I guess!).
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10 Bright Stars
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I found this post very interesting too, and often wonder if all the "hard work and toil" will "pay off". I am firmly convinced that our children can tell when we are sincere or not. If our faith is not deeply rooted and real, I think they can pick up on that somehow, and that might lead some of them to leave. (Scary thought since I have been so tired and cranky this pregnancy! Not the best example.) Also, I think that the father's faith is crucial. This does NOT mean that all families that have non-Catholic father's will grow up to not be Catholic themselves, but I think especially for the boys, it is very important to see God as approachable as a man instead of seeing it as a woman's thing. Perhaps a strong influence from another Catholic male relative or a priest could be pivotal here, but I think it is important for the parents to be united in world view/faith, and also for the dad to be "spiritual" in front of the kids.
I know with my husband's family, the father lead the family rosary, went to Mass often, (more than Sunday mass), said the brevery with the teens, led Bible studies, was active in Charismatic prayer groups with the whole family, talked about God openly and without embarrasment, and was also a masculine male. So, that seemed to work for them. The mom followed his lead, and was also spiritual, although a convert etc. I know that my husband has no trouble singing in mass, or going to church, or being involved in spiritual things. He is a very masucline male, but spirituality doesn't embarrass him. So, I think it is important to make it natural, and not optional. It should be a given, just like breathing and drinking water. Rain or shine, snow or sleet, he went to mass with the family. There was consistancy built into the routine and structure of the home.
I often have worried about homeschooling too though as I know of many homeschooled girls who have become pregnant prior to marriage at a young age. What caused this? I have no idea!!!! Everything worked out in the end, the girls are still Catholic and married Catholic husbands, but I wonder if it could have been prevented, or pondered what happened?
Sometimes I also worry about my children because they have to do so much at home. I have very difficult pregnancies, and cannot cope doing the housework alone. (Which I don't think would be right anyway, but they do have ALOT of it to help with since we have such a large family.) Anyway, my eldest will sometimes resent the "messy younger kids" for creating so many messes, and I wonder if all the stress of a large family will make them not want to have large families of their own, or if it will make them want to reject it all!!! So, always a concern, to keep it all in balance, but I think the main thing is what someone else said, it is our example that they are watching, and that is the most frightening thing of all!!! I think of all of my husbands and my human weaknesses, and also the fact that I am a convert, and sometimes struggle with "naturally" pulling the liturgical year into our lives, and I stay up at night too!!!
I know of several women at church who are much older and had children grow up in the 60's generation. (So, they are in their 70's) All of their children, 17 between two of them, fell away!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is shocking. One lady has none of her children back in the church, the other one has all but one back in the church. The common thread for both of them, as stated by them, is that their kids were in the 60's, post vatican II generation, AND that their spouses were not at all engaged with the faith. In fact, they were negligent in the faith/hostile to it. Now, one of the husbands is a deacon, and this is the family where all but one of the kids have come back!!!!! For the other, the husband did come around as he got older too, but so far, no one has returned.
So, I find this very interesting too, and I guess there is only the recourse of prayer. I do not know how a parent could "survive" heaven knowing one of your children was in hell, so it makes it a very important discussion and something to ponder. ;
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Kim married to Bob (22y)
Mom of 11 blessings:
Bobby 19, David 17, Noah 14,
Mary 12, Gracie 10,
Isabelle and Sophia 8,
Gabrielle 6,
William Anthony 4, Joseph 3 and Luisa Marie - born in M
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teachingmom
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I finally had time to read through this thread. Much to think about here. I loved what you shared about your parents, Helene!
I don't have time to add much to the conversation, but wanted to share something I do. In the past year or two I have felt led to add a daily petition to our family night prayers. We always have a time for each member of our family to offer personal intercessions out loud. When it is my turn to pray, I always end with, "And for all of our children and godchildren, that they grow up to be good, holy, faithful Catholics." Maybe by hearing me pray that out loud every day for all of their childhoods, my children will come to realize that THAT truly is my greatest hope for them.
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Ouiz
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I just wanted to thank you all so much for all that you had to say on this subject. I read every post with great interest, since this is a concern that is very dear to my heart.
I was raised in what would be considered a better than average Catholic home. We attended Mass every Sunday, but other than that, I don't remember much being said about the Faith. My parents sent us all to parochial school (not the bastion of holiness one would hope for it to be!), and assumed, I suppose, that we would learn that way.
It didn't happen.
All of us turned away from the Catholic faith. I was rather rabid in my anti-Catholicism for many years, and it was only due to my (then boyfriend, now) husband's request to "walk him through a Mass" that I even returned. He converted just before we got married, and I followed him in... unwillingly, at first, but now joyfully.
Out of the 5 of us kids, I am the only practicing Catholic, AND the only practicing Christian. I know it hurts my mom, and she has asked me many times, "What did we do wrong?"
I live in fear, I will admit, that my sinfulness -- my impatience with the kids, losing my temper, etc -- will silence ANYTHING I've ever taught my kids about the Faith, and will drive them away.
May God have mercy on all of our children, and may they all remain faithful...
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Ouiz
Blessed to be married to the man of my dreams and mom to 8 wonderful children here on earth
B-17, G-16, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, G-7, B-4
Chez Ouiz
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kris
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helene wrote:
| I think JennyMaine, above, is right. It is important to remember that God made our children with free will (rats!) and Faith is a gift (so is free will, I guess!). |
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--So true. I wonder if there aren't any *formulas* because in that we are reminded that the work is truly the Lord's.
Think of how long St Monica labored in prayer over St Augustine. Of course no one wants there child to get on the wrong path at any time or for any length of time, but would St Augustine be St Augustine without having had all the experiences in his life good and bad?
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http://myspiritrejoices.blogspot.c
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isjalu0826
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Interesting thread, one that resonates with me, as I often look at my sweet innocent 4 year old and wonder what he will encounter in Life and will he be strong enough to face it all stalwartly... I pray every night for this intention and often say the Prayer to St. Michael as well.
One thing I wanted to add to the discussion was a beautiful thought my pastor passed on to me just a few weeks ago. I went in to him about something like this topic and 'was I doing enough' and 'what about the outside influences', etc... And he said something like this (I can't remember the exact words, I apologize) something like "Don't think so much about what to tell him or show him, what to teach him or such. Instead, be faithful yourself to your faith and live your faith, and let your love for God and your faithfulness spill over to him". OH! I wish I remembered the exact words, but this was the jist of it. In other words, don't give him the cup to drink, let him have what spills over from you...
I have to say, it did inspire me. I kept thinking, yes, see, I get that! I have to lead him with my faith and spirit. The books, the talks, the crafts, etc... are all good and wonderful, but it also has to be about my witness even more.
I think something of what Helene wrote above ties in with what my pastor said. Her parents' love of God spilled over into their children...
I just wanted to share these thoughts. God Bless.
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Lisbet
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Helene,
What a beautiful testiment to holy and steadfast parents. I can only pray that my children will one day have such things to say about their father and I. Thank you so much for sharing that with all of us. It was beautiful and inspiring to read.
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Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
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Henry, 7
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SuzC
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This is a great thread! I really need to go back and reread it.
A thought I've had since Elizabeth's initital post is this: my parents have been actively involved in prolife for a long time. At one of the earliest Human Life International conferences, Fr. Marx told them to be on guard...Satan will come to you through your children.
Now in hindsight, they probably should not have shared that with me - given that to a certain extent it was a self-fulfilling prophecy.
My point is though that Satan must despise women like MRN and MVT and all who are trying in their way to bring the rest of us closer to God.
I am NOT suggesting that it's all the devil's fault, nor am I suggesting that any souls are lost, but is it possible that he saw these souls as a greater victory with the added benefit of shaking down their strong mother and thus challenged the children with particularly crafty temptations?
Am I way off.
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Suz in TX
dd~12, dd~9, ds~8, ds~6, ds~4, ds~1
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krygerzoo
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Wow.... thanks for the though provoking insights! I, too, hope that my kiddos can look back and see the good that we do for them in order to bring all the glory to God.
My five year old's prayer intention during family petitions has repeatedly been that our family stay close to Christ and no one leave Him. AMEN, kiddo!! Out of the mouth of babes. 
My heart aches for parents that leave their Faith due to the loss of a child. Two years ago our ten year old went to his Eternal Home, under the care of our Blessed Mother. (Sixteen days after his death, I gave birth to our fifth child.) All I know is that this suffering is hard enough to go through WITH God.... how terrible (and pointless) to endure it without God and His amazing gift of the Catholic church.
I hope that we're modeling for our children the beauty in suffering, to embrace it. I love that when my children get hurt, they offer it up to another kid their age that needs a prayer.
My hubby and I were not raised Catholic. Although I was baptised Catholic, we stopped going to church when I was ten. My family never prayed, I didn't even believe that Jesus was truly the Son of God...(oh, I cringe at even saying that...argh.)
I think that having a child leave the faith would be more painful than the separation of death (which is so temporary). I have actually told my children before that I'm so not afraid of monsters.... only them deciding to leave the church! Leaving their souls so readily available to satan without the graces would be frightening! 
Praying for your families, Katherine
wife to David '89
momma to Ramsey '05, Claire '01, Collin '99, Cassidy Grace '07, and missing my Kaden Michael +1994-2005+ May the souls of the faithful departed rest in peace. Amen
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Cay Gibson
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Helene,
I'm still catching up on threads since my trip.
I loved your post.
Two things that stood out for me were:
helene wrote:
She has an uncanny way of quietly saying and doing the right thing
That's it. That's the secret. Great parents doing simple but sometimes hard things with consistency and prayer. |
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This made me . The first line reminds me of Venerable Zelie Martin I wrote about earlier.
We tend to complicate such simple things. And the simplest lives certainly seem to be the things of beauty we should be reaching for.
My family was not perfect but I do remember my parents being very steadfast in the Faith. There was no wavering. Could this be the secret?
helene wrote:
They still live in that small house and the 9 of us with OUR kids still descend upon this tiny place for the Holidays and swell its walls with life and joyful noise again and again. I was part of that house and it still lives with me. I am grateful to have experienced its love.
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Recently I have discovered a calm sense of peace and acceptance about the home my dh has brought us hom to...his childhood home...and this just reverberates the treasure this home is to my family.
THank you for sharing your  , your home, and your family.
__________________
Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: What went wrong? What went right?
