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stacykay
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| Posted: May 29 2007 at 8:17am | IP Logged
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I really appreciate this discussion. I have learned so much from all the threads on modesty and clothing; things I probably would never have thought about if it weren't for all of you!
I do have a question:
Would any ever approach someone dressed in an obviously immodest fashion at church? What would you say? Or how would you say it?
A teen girl sat in front of us (yes, my dh, me and my six boys!) wearing thin white short-shorts (not just short from the bottom, but from the top, too!) We had a nice view of the beginning of the, uh, cr*ck,  , and her lovely red th*ng, which came up much further than her shorts. When she stood, things improved, but everytime she sat, it was eye-popping. We have also seen tops that were skimpy at best.
I feel kind of bad that I didn't say anything-as I think we are called to reproach or inform others when neccesary. I really don't know.
One of my friends has also found the too low pants at her church. Is this just a problem in MI, or have others noticed it?
Thanks for all your wisdom!
God Bless,
Stacy in MI
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Lorri
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| Posted: May 29 2007 at 8:32am | IP Logged
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guitarnan wrote:
We lived in Virginia Beach for several years, and each summer our pastor would remind us that, even if we had post-Mass plans, bathing suits are not Mass attire. People didn't come to Mass in bathing suits alone, but he took offense at the bathing suit-plus-coverup attire, not because it was particularly immodest (it wasn't) but because it reflected the person's priorities, as in, "I'll swing by church and then hit the beach," and the person dressed for the activity most important to him or her.
He never said anything about sleeveless tops. Or shorts of a decent length. VB is hot and humid in summer. He said quite a lot about bathing suits and which activity took priority.
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That's an interesting take on things. I grew up in a tourist town and went to church at one of city's ultimate tourist attractions - The Old Mission Santa Barbara. For our family, dressing up for church was putting on clean jeans. Santa Barbara was/is a laid back, beach going, tourist town. The Mission is not air conditioned. Tourists very often come to mass in whatever they happened to be wearing around town that day. I never saw bathing suits, but shorts, t-shirts and sandals were the norm in summer. While some of the tourists weren't Catholic and probably wandered in just hoping to see the inside of the church, most of the tourists had taken time out of their day to attend mass. They were welcomed but the regulars just the same.
One weekend my family was in San Francisco. We attended Saturday mass at the now-closed St. Brigid's. We showed up wearing jeans and t-shirts. We didn't look terribly out of place, but one old lady gave us such a look! You know, we may have been out site-seeing all day, but we were very aware of where we wanted to attend mass and at what time. We couldn't make it back to the hotel, but going to mass was definitely not an after-thought. I'm glad that God will judge us less harshly than that old woman and her glares. It's less about what we look like outside than what we look like inside.
I'm usually the most underdressed person in church because of my upbringing.
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Mackfam
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| Posted: May 29 2007 at 9:13am | IP Logged
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I hesitate to post here because my heart is very much attached to this subject and I don't want to offend or be uncharitable.
I will say that Modesty has been, and continues to be a journey bearing much fruit for me. For me, I learned that my outward appearance has a very real impact on my interior disposition.
I do not judge anyone for their apparel at Mass, but do find certain fashions very offensive in particular because my husband and son must constantly be on guard with their eyes. My daughter too must fight distraction here at times.
Our Lady to Blessed Jacinta: "Certain fashions are going to be introduced which will offend Our Lord very much...the Church has no fashions, Our Lord is always the same."
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Jen Mackintosh
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Lisbet
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| Posted: May 29 2007 at 9:25am | IP Logged
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Jennifer, Your post above is very eloquent and echos my sentiments on this very much.
One thing I have found to be very beneficial about dressing not only modestly, but more feminine is that I am dressed ready for mass or a visit to the chapel (which we make very regularly and spontaneously) all the time.
I too have seen much fruit in my own life and my marriage from giving more attention to my attire.
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St. Ann
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This may not be totally relevant, but I would like to share a recent observation.
Last Sunday, Pentecost, we attended Mass with my parents (visiting from the US) at an out of town Parish. When we arrived there were no seats up front, so we had to sit in the back half of the church.
From my vantage point I could barely see the altar (and I am tall) and so my eyes drifted downward. I noticed a well dressed woman in a pant suit and saw how unflattering it was for her bum. She was not overweight at all, but her pants were riding up a bit...The older, rounder woman next to her wore a skirt. I didn't even notice her bum. Then my eyes wandered some more...(You all must think I am nuts or some kind of pervert!? YIKES!) This whole eye wandering was taking on a scientific kind of observation...I did not see one flattering woman's bum in pants in great contrast to the women in normal skirts, which neither disgusted nor did excite.
Now, this was just from my vantage point and possibly not a question of modesty, but of good taste. I know I look nicer in skirts and dresses than in pants and have adapted my wardrobe accordingly. Sunday Mass is always Sunday dress anyway in our home, but after my 'prayerful' bum watching at Mass, I am even more convinced , just as a matter of taste, that dresses and skirts are the way to go. Yet, it is true that I grew into this way of thinking, and only after being with others who dressed better and tried to live out their faith in their every day lives, trying to make all aspects of their lives beautiful for the glory of God.
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JennGM
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Stacy,
I don't think it helps to say things to the people, although my grandmother used to say she wanted to take Polaroids of people's rear end to show how awful they look! I think in her old age she would tap some on their shoulder, but I think she used her age to her advantage.
Truly, most people have ignorance as far as modesty. They aren't taught modesty, and fashion dictates the rules. IMHO The only things to do is pray for them and give good example.
My mother's approach is my favorite. If we saw someone or pictures (billboards) of an immodestly (scantily) clad person, she would tell us to divert our eyes and say three times to ourselves "Virgin most pure, pray for us." I still think this action reminds us to not judge, but to do something active (praying) for the end to immodesty.
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Matilda
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| Posted: May 29 2007 at 12:06pm | IP Logged
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I have to say that this has been one of the most charitable discussions on modesty I have read amongst faithful Catholics.
A couple of thoughts I had:
Rules make it easier, it is true. I have often wished that the Church would just "lay down the law" when it comes to some of these issues. I think it speaks volumes though, that they haven't. I remember the Pharisees who became so caught up in "the rules" and Our Lord had very harsh words for them. I know there is a dress code for visitors to the Vatican, but they do not extend those requirements to all churches in Italy. I don't like to put myself in the position of requiring more of people that the Church does.
Let's talk for a minute.
Is a sleeveless shirt immodest?
I think it would depend on the cut of the shirt, the shape of the person wearing it and their intentions.
Sleeveless shirts can be cut close around the arm's eye or very loose. A small busted woman might not reveal as much in the same v-neck shirt that a larger busted woman would be "popping out of". Is it a sign of a casual attitude? Well that would go back to the person's intention which no one can know except the person inside the shirt.
On Easter Sunday, a woman sat right in front of us wearing scrubs. She was modestly covered from ankle to collarbone. However, when she sat down, the pants slipped very low on her backside and you could see the top of her bum. Was she dressed appropriately? Maybe she had no other Mass to attend and no way to change clothes before work or after. I doubt she intended to be revealing, it was an accident. Was she modest?
Another situation? I would think that most people here would agree that any outfit that exposes the mid-section of a woman's body is not appropriate for Mass. Right? Well, we showed up for confession last Saturday as a wedding Mass was ending. The family was from India and their were women young and old wearing saris with their mid-drifts exposed. Were they dressed modestly? I doubt the bride's grandmother was intending to be immodest and certainly wasn't trying to entice or arouse.
What I am trying to say is that I sympathize with those who are distracted by thoughts of anger and frustration when it comes to how people dress for Mass, but ultimately, should we be judging them?
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BrendaPeter
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After reading all the thoughtful posts here, I feel compelled to ask you all to consider praying & fasting for priests, particularly for parish priests to become more courageous. Simply abstaining from sweets one day a week for this intention could bear much fruit!
After discussing this issue in the past with some of my friends we have found that the best solution seems to be when the priest brings up the topic of modesty at the beginning of the warm-weather season & then brings it up again somewhere in the middle as a reminder. It's also very important and helpful to post dress standards at the front of the Church, particularly for visitors. Could any of you (or your husbands) discuss this with your priest? I also think we tend to underestimate (myself included!) the importance of giving good example.
We are very blessed to be affiliated with a local friary. When one of the friars speaks about modesty in his homilies, he always mentions that instead of trying to be cool & comfortable in the warm weather, we should be thinking of the temperature of where we may be headed eternally when we dressed immodestly  .
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SuzanneG
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BrendaPeter wrote:
After reading all the thoughtful posts here, I feel compelled to ask you all to consider praying & fasting for priests, particularly for parish priests to become more courageous. Simply abstaining from sweets one day a week for this intention could bear much fruit!
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Yes! Thank you Brenda for the reminder! An excellent "tangible" way to be the church militant in regards to this issue. I am pulling out my sacrifice beads and hanging them on my kitchen cupboard....pull those beads for our priests and Modesty at Mass!
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BrendaPeter
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After reading all the thoughtful posts here, I feel compelled to ask you all to consider praying & fasting for priests, particularly for parish priests to become more courageous. Simply abstaining from sweets one day a week for this intention could bear much fruit!
After discussing this issue in the past with some of my friends we have found that the best solution seems to be when the priest brings up the topic of modesty at the beginning of the warm-weather season & then brings it up again somewhere in the middle as a reminder. It's also very important and helpful to post dress standards at the front of the Church, particularly for visitors. Could any of you (or your husbands) discuss this with your priest? I also think we tend to underestimate (myself included!) the importance of giving good example by our own modest dress.
We are very blessed to be affiliated with a local friary. The friars have a special prayer they say whenever they go out in public asking their guardian angels to protect their eyes from immodest images. Considering all the immodesty in today's world, that's something we all could do especially for our dc!
When one of the friars speaks about modesty in his homilies, he always mentions that instead of trying to be cool & comfortable in the warm weather, we should be thinking of the temperature of where we may be headed eternally when we dressed immodestly .
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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nicole-amdg
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I had a few thoughts I wanted to share.
One is that I've noticed that our girls tend to be modest intuitively. I remember even as a "worldly" young teen who wanted to dress like my friends, I still felt very uncomfortable if I tried to wear my only pair of short shorts or the off-the-shoulder sweater that was a gift. My dds (9 and 4) fuss if a t-shirt is too low or loose at the neck. I do think it's the example of others that helps or hurts. I remember talking to my older dd about fashions and modesty, and referring to certain trends as "bad fashion"--well, I neglected to remember the extended family members who wear those fashions and had to backtrack on my presentation a little bit to avoid scandalizing her!
Two, I've worn jeans or other less-than-ideal-for-Mass apparel plenty of times. I made a rule that neither I nor the girls would wear pants to Mass and I've often felt extremely guilty about breaking my own rule, but for reasons I won't go into now, I had to make the decision to be grateful that I was even there. I would hate to have someone judge me by what I wear without knowing my circumstances, so I think of that when I see someone in something that no one here (I think) would disagree is immodest, and I pray for them. I also pray for our pastor who occasionally--but directly--but charitably makes a point about appropriate attire.
Three, I'm curious about what some would consider too form-fitting for tops. Sometimes I think that anything knitted that is not so baggy as to be frumpy clings too much! (I wear a lot of button-ups!) But then I miss my knit tops.
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Anne McD
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A couple of thoughts come to mind . . .
I agree (and I think we've all seen some examples of this) that some dress at Mass is just wrong (and it seems to be on the under 18 crowd, for the most part!). Yes, there are some rules that should cerainly be in place, but it seems like "enforcing a dress code" turns into a bandaid solution to a bigger problem. This isn't a question of sleeveless vs. 3/4 length sleeves, this comes down to people not having respect for the God-given s*xuality that has been given to them. Our society is absolutey OBSESSED with s*x. So many of these girls are willing to give of themselves in a way that would do them so much harm, but they are searching for something that they don't have, and they don't understand where they need to get it from (first of all, God). My second thought when I see some of this attire is, "how in the world did her father let her out of the house dressed like that?!" Are they so desensitized to this or so wimpy that they won't take their rightful place as head of the family and put thier foot down (speaking as a non-male, no-father, here! ). I think the real problem comes from lack of self respect, and not understanding the beautiful gift God has given them.
My biggest pet peeve? When a very modestly, nicely dressed mommy stands up at the end of Mass to collect her children and their belongings and BENDS STRAIGHT OVER. There's her tushie, for all the world to see-- not a modesty point, more of an "aw, come on!" (and I'm guilty of this, I'll point out!)
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Philothea
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| Posted: May 29 2007 at 5:16pm | IP Logged
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Lori! You grew up in SB? I did too .... well, Santa Ynez/Solvang and later Lompoc. My parents still live there!
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Martha
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There's been some assumptions that I think are rather hurtful and often untrue, imho.
We seem to be confusing personal taste with modesty and further with religious requirement. The lack of middle ground is harsh. One can wear jeans, or a sleeveless shirt to mass and not be a "giving it away" type of female, nor does it make her some ignoramous whose mother didn't do right by her. There is middle ground between a thong display (obviously indecent) and being covered neck to heel. Any man who can't think straight at the mere sight of a woman's shoulder has issues that have nothing to do with anything the gal is or is not wearing.
Yes, we are the Church. And we, the Church, does not require a dress code no matter how much some may want to dictate one.
If you feel better in a certain more formal attire for whatever reason, then that's great.
If we're going to talk about setting an example, let's discuss an example that is accepting of our fellow Catholic, who is no less flawed than we are, rather than telling them they have to do something that the church does not ask of them to meet your own personal standards. Or worse, making them feel they have no place being in God's church unless they meet your notion of a good Catholic appearance.
And I will try very hard to make this the last I say on this subject for all our sakes. 
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Anne McD
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Martha,
I'm so sorry-- I hope I didn't give that impression! What I was referring to is the thong displaying, one gust of wind and we're all in for a show type of dressing. I completely agree with you that there is gray area. And I agree with some very good priests that I have spoken with who, though they make a mention in the bulliten before the summer season, try hard not to outcast or offend anyone, so as to turn them away. I don't mean to make a blanket attack on parents, esp. since I don't have older children, and I haven't had to face those challenges.
Difficult subjects are even more difficult to discuss when everyone isn't face to face! 
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guitarnan
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Martha,
I think you're right on many counts, especially the part where we're supposed to remove the beam in our own eye before commenting on the speck in someone else's.
Hugs,
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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Lorri
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| Posted: May 30 2007 at 1:38pm | IP Logged
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Philothea wrote:
| Lori! You grew up in SB? I did too .... well, Santa Ynez/Solvang and later Lompoc. My parents still live there! |
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Yep! My parents are still there, too, and my mom works at the Mission. :)
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Lorri
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Modesty at Mass!!!
