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Rachel May
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| Posted: May 28 2007 at 1:04pm | IP Logged
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MommyD wrote:
| First, isn't modesty relative? Bare arms aren't uncommon anymore and I don't know any man or boy who would be offended or distracted by them. |
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I would say modesty is relative to personal taste, the culture and the situation. Bathing suits and jog bra tops are common in hot weather, but does that make them proper mass attire? Not to me. However, The Marylike Standards sound similar to a burqa to me and lean too far the other direction. And the Vatican Dress Code is strict about what is covered, but not how. It allows blue jeans and paper pants which many women here wouldn't approve of.
When I get dresed for mass (or in general) I do my best to think about how I feel in an outfit. Do I feel appropriately covered? Am I comfortable based on the weather and culture I'm living in (big difference between Hawaii and Virginia)? Do I feel like I look pretty without being sexy? If I were my teenaged sister, would I be embarrassed to be seen with me? Am I doing the best I can for Our Lord today based on my personal path to holiness, my limitations as a mother of a big family, how I feel, what I have in my wardrobe, etc?
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| Second, I agree that there is a huge problem with the clothing that young women are wearing in general and especially at Mass. Aren't I being a better example to an under-clad young women in my trendy, fully-covered sleevless top and pants then someone in a skirt 8 inches below the knee? |
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I think in a way we are because people usually can only move in baby steps. We are a step more modest than these young women, but perhaps we can and will in time move a step closer to the modesty of a woman in a long skirt. I feel that for the women here, modesty is a part of out personal path to holiness and we won't and don't need to end up at the exact same place this side of Heaven.
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Rachel May
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| Posted: May 28 2007 at 1:10pm | IP Logged
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Quote:
| It is important to understand that the point of all this is not to get everyone to dress up like going to a wedding party, but to make people cover their sinful flesh. You can be dressed in rags and they'll let you in! |
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I'm curious what you think of this last line from that Vatican site.
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Mary G
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| Posted: May 28 2007 at 3:13pm | IP Logged
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Modesty's definition is relative -- as someone mentioned, 8" below the knee would have been shocking a century ago....And there is no "strict" definition -- a loose sleeveless top will be much more modest than a skin-tight, long-sleeved, low-cut top.
That's why I say its a matter of formation/education ... here in the US (particularly, here in the West) things are much more relaxed clothing-wise than they once were (and still are in the South) ... folks wear jeans, shorts, summer clothes to work downtown (some even don't wear shoes)....
But, what we wear to Mass is different and should show some modicum of difference from what we wear "about" town. As I mentioned earlier, Opera clothes have traditionally been a certain dress; Sunday best is like that also. I'm a cradle Catholic, but have been taught what "Sunday best" is ... but others may never have been taught properly....
Chicken Lady you're fortunate your priest will talk about this in Mass -- many won't touch it! It's too subjective. That's why I suggest articles or notes int he bulletin, diocesan paper ... especially as Summer approaches.
BTW, this modesty/Mass attire issue is not just the females -- I've been embarrassed by what some of the men/boys wear too! Sounds like we need to start a grass-roots campaign. As someone mentioned, maybe we need to be bold enough to explain to some of these folks .... for instance, we have a cantor who insists on folding her ponytail up into a "blowsy" mess and one Sunday wore a tight off-the-shoulder tank top with her camy showing ... and she gets up in front of the congregation; my point is, someone must have talked to her becuase the last couple of Sundays, her dress has become much more sedate and respectful to her position ....
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J.Anne
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| Posted: May 28 2007 at 3:40pm | IP Logged
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I am more bothered by sloppy dressing that sleeveless tops - sweat pants, workout shorts, messy t-shirts. I see this stuff every single Sunday. And I'm not speaking of people who can't afford better clothing. I'm talking about people not making an effort to put on their "Sunday best". I don't think I could walk into a church in jeans - even during the week, but my father (who very nearly became a priest and is one of the moral men I have ever known) feels perfectly comfortable in jeans. Michele, I think you are right in saying that clothing reflects what kind of person you are, but it isn't necessarily a good yardstick to measure someone's morality.
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StephanieA
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<<<<<the knee were considered immodest; the glimpse of an ankle was quite titillating.
So, yes, modesty is relative.>>>>>>
I think this is where I am coming from. I really don't think the ankle WAS titillating. I really think it was a matter of style. Would your average guy be titillated by an ankle - even 50, 100, 1000 years ago? I don't think so.
Modesty may be relative, but relative to whom? Does it cause your AVERAGE guy to have immodest thoughts? I have seen sleeveless shirts that are certainly proper (small arm holes and non-clinging cotton). My daughter owns one of these and I haven't a problem with it. However, most tank tops on girls reveal too much for our guys. We need to remember we aren't dressing for ourselves so much as for others.
I am recognizing this with my 3 teen boys. I nurse very modestly. But occasionally the littler nurser will pull away or pull my shirt to the side or up. Years ago, no one paid much attention. But lately I have been talking to one of my sons while nursing and at times they struggle to keep eye contact with me while the little one squirms. They certainly aren't trying to be immodest. But we are expecting WAY too much from them to keep their eyes where they belong if when we bend over, much cleavage is revealed. Men are tempted by sight.
I don't think women realize this....at least I didn't fully until you are trying to raise moral thinking young men.
Blessings,
Stephanie
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MicheleQ
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| Posted: May 28 2007 at 3:48pm | IP Logged
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Rachel May wrote:
Quote:
| It is important to understand that the point of all this is not to get everyone to dress up like going to a wedding party, but to make people cover their sinful flesh. You can be dressed in rags and they'll let you in! |
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I'm curious what you think of this last line from that Vatican site. |
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That's not a Vatican site it's a tour guide site so it's just someone personal interpretation. 
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Martha
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| Posted: May 28 2007 at 5:21pm | IP Logged
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bottom line for me?
this is not a moral issue most of the time
we should be careful not to ask of people more than what the church asks of them
the church does not require dressing in skirt alone or to cover to such a degree and no one has the right to ask more of someone than the church asks of them
insisting things be required when they aren't does turn many people off. Daily mass and rosary for example are very good indeed, but a person is not less of a good catholic if they don't do it.
do my clothes speak to who I am? sure they do. I'm a housewife and homeschooling mom to 8 children under 13 year old. Frankly, if I show up in anything that sorta matches without little noses having marked up my lower half, there's no breastmilk leaking trails on my upper half, my hair hasn't gone lopsided, and without too much yelling at the kids to get a move on - it's a mighty fine Sunday and I'm too busy making sure my own kids are participating in the mass to notice any one else's. 
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chicken lady
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Well I for one am most grateful that this is not the norm for us! I was and am shocked by immodest attire at the Holy Mass. I as a parent I have the right and duty to form and educate my children, and for us that includes preserving their purity.
I would also appreciate while quoting me to please read carefully what I said! I found it difficult to pray the mass, I never said I did not pray! Rather I prayed a great deal.
I am sorry if I linked the unofficial Vatican site, it is still their policy regardless if I mis-linked
I am quite surprised, I seem to have unintentionally upset some people, I really was quite naive in assuming that others would understand me.
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MicheleQ
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| Posted: May 28 2007 at 5:41pm | IP Logged
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Oh Molly I'm sorry! I didn't mean to sound snide about that. I don't think you mis-linked at all - I just wanted to point out that the part quoted (about sinful flesh) wasn't said by anyone "official".
You are quite right that preserving purity is part of the education and formation of our children. Clicking around the Vatican site today I found these quotes from The Truth and Meaning of Human Sexuality:
"The practice of decency and modesty in speech, action and dress is very important for creating an atmosphere suitable to the growth of chastity, but this must be well motivated by respect for one's own body and the dignity of others. Parents, as we have said, should be watchful so that certain immoral fashions and attitudes do not violate the integrity of the home, especially through misuse of the mass media. In this regard, the Holy Father stressed the need "to promote closer collaboration between parents, who have primary responsibility for education, those in charge of the mass media at various levels and the public authorities, so that families are not left without guidance in such an important sector of their educational mission."
"Since boys and girls at puberty are particularly vulnerable to emotional influences, through dialogue and the way they live, parents have the duty to help their children resist negative outside influences that may lead them to have little regard for Christian formation in love and chastity. Especially in societies overwhelmed by consumer pressures, parents should sometimes watch out for their children's relations with young people of the opposite sex - without making it too obvious. Even if they are socially acceptable, some habits of speech and conduct are not morally correct and represent a way of trivializing sexuality, reducing it to a consumer object. Parents should therefore teach their children the value of Christian modesty, moderate dress, and, when it comes to trends, the necessary autonomy characteristic of a man or woman with a mature personality."
God bless,
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Martha
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chicken lady wrote:
I as a parent I have the right and duty to form and educate my children, and for us that includes preserving their purity.
I am quite surprised, I seem to have unintentionally upset some people, I really was quite naive in assuming that others would understand me. |
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That's just it, I think most here actually agree with you - to a point.
Of course we should all form and educate our children in their faith and living according to it!
And we all believe we are I'm sure.
The thing is, the church has never made a certain attire required of it's members and it is not up to us to do it for her.
That's my sticking point. Whether we could agree on a particuliar standard definition of modesty to insist upon or not - the church is not making this requirement of the faithful.
I'm sorry if you feel attacked or anything. That was certainly not my intent. Simply bringing a different perspective to the table...
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chicken lady
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Michele you are so kind, I did not intend to refer to you, rather regardless of my mis-link it is still the policy.
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chicken lady
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| Posted: May 28 2007 at 6:28pm | IP Logged
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Martha wrote:
The thing is, the church has never made a certain attire required of it's members and it is not up to us to do it for her.
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This is incorrect Theology, we are the church, we have the Vatican stating guidelines and we as Catholics have a duty to form our conscience and educate ourselves. The church has also raised to the altar MANY saints for us to guide us in this process, I have yet to hear of one stating that indecencies is relative.
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chicken lady
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After rereading my last post I ask forgivness for my tone and verbage. I think I need to walk away from this topic I am humbly sorry for any and all offense.
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JennGM
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Quite a hot button topic. I do see that the underlying problem with this discussion is that there ARE NO Black and White rules. People keep trying to create or find them, but they aren't out there. There are guidelines and common sense judgments, but there are a variety of conclusion and interpretations. And that variety can lead to strong feelings! I'd say most of us have discerned and formed our consciences to what is considered modest -- but don't be surprised if it doesn't match everyone else's idea.
I have similar feelings as MicheleQ. I don't wear sleeveless in church, but I do wear sleeveless shirts on occasion. My personal hang up is strapless, spaghetti straps, and halter tops -- and flip flops. Flip flops aren't immodest, but it makes my blood boil to see them on the altar.  It seems sloppy and irreverent. But you see, that's my hang up!
And just a personal experience to share. The Vatican may have these guidelines and rules posted, but I have been there a few times where newly married couples get a blessing from the pope, and the bride's attire broke all these "rules". Strapless, spaghetti straps....
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juststartn
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I am chiming in late, but I lean more towards Betsy's take on it. And I live in the south--steamy, muggy, humid, buggy...blech. I don't find it to be that difficult, frankly, if one chooses appropriate fabrics/styles. I wear a lot of linen skirts, cotton shirts...you know, the usual. I found some great linen skirts last summer at Target, mid-calf length. They don't look frumpy. They wash and wear from the machine easily. And they have pockets (woohoo! LOL).
I do understand, however, that we are all on a journey, and some of us are at different places along the road. The thing I wonder is, is if we are on a journey (not just towards Christ, in this instance, but towards a better understanding of certain virtues, such as Modesty), do we all have the same destination? Is the destination relative? Just a question I have had running thru my head as I have perused this thread.
This is an issue that can be very heated. I'd say we've done a pretty good job of keeping it cool...(Chicken Lady--I think you've done ok--just exposed a bit of the depth of your heart...((hugs)) ). That's one of the things I love about this board. We ladies CAN be passionate about such things (wow, a board where ladies are passionate about MODESTY! I LOVE IT! LOL).
Anyway, this is an issue that does require a lot of thought and development as we change along the way. I've only been of this mindset for a couple of years now....so I cannot judge the heart of a person, just the actions (as someone else said earlier in this thread)....what effect do those actions have on me and mine? Alot easier to judge those actions then...
My $.02...
Rachel (hoping I've not riled anyone up!)
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SeaStar
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I think many people are not taught how to dress modestly as children. "Modest dress" per se was something my mother never sat down and talked to me about. I think most kids these days take their cues from the media.
At my church I see it all- sleeveless seems minor compared to the skin tight, short, short skirts and plunging necklines. I'd rather see someone in clean jeans and a t-shirt than a blouse that shows me 2/3 of her breasts, which is quite common on Sundays.
But then I also think- all these people are here at mass wanting to celebrate with the Lord. They are here when they could be anywhere else. Maybe their taste in clothing is a little mixed up, but at least they are here. Who am i to judge?
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Celeste
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I'm with you, Jenn, on the flip flops. 
I want to defend, pleasantly, my comment about ankles being titillating in the past. They were. Seriously. American men who travel--today--in countries where women must wear burkhas have commented that, with everything covered like that, just a glimpse of a woman's face is exciting. Interesting that in Islam, as I understand it, women bear the entire burden for a man's impure thoughts. He has no responsibility. That's why the women have to cover everything, to make sure they excite no one.
Celeste
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hobbitmom
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I was a bit startled by the opening post, since my wedding dress and those of my bridesmaids were sleeveless also, and I had no idea that was immodest!
I went to a Catholic college that had a dress code, and as prefect I had to enforce that code many times and ask the female students to change their clothes. (Not the most fun of jobs.) We were only to wear skirts or dresses to classes, meals and Mass, and the minimum acceptable length was "touching the floor when you kneel" (yes, I had to make some of the students kneel to check!). Necklines could not be more than four fingers below the collarbone. Form-fitting tops were not allowed. Sneakers were not permitted either, and shoes had to be either closed or with a back strap (so one couldn't slip them off and go barefoot, presumably). I can't count how many complaints I heard about the supposedly draconian modesty standards.
And yet we were allowed to wear sleeveless tops -- as long as the straps were more than three (or was it four? now I can't remember  ) fingers wide.
So it never occurred to me that my wedding dress might be immodest! Actually, I thought I had done well by avoiding the plunging necklines and bare backs that are so common.
Modesty is always an interesting topic... not least because of the intense emotions it stirs up. Thank you, everybody, for being an example of how to discuss a volatile issue with charity!
Amy
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guitarnan
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We lived in Virginia Beach for several years, and each summer our pastor would remind us that, even if we had post-Mass plans, bathing suits are not Mass attire. People didn't come to Mass in bathing suits alone, but he took offense at the bathing suit-plus-coverup attire, not because it was particularly immodest (it wasn't) but because it reflected the person's priorities, as in, "I'll swing by church and then hit the beach," and the person dressed for the activity most important to him or her.
He never said anything about sleeveless tops. Or shorts of a decent length. VB is hot and humid in summer. He said quite a lot about bathing suits and which activity took priority.
Food for thought?
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MarieC
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| Posted: May 28 2007 at 10:34pm | IP Logged
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guitarnan wrote:
He said quite a lot about bathing suits and which activity took priority.
Food for thought? |
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I'm jumping in way late here but for me, this is what it all boils down to. If I dress better for a dinner out or for work or whatever...it's a problem. I personally don't choose to wear sleeveless stuff much at all anymore (it isn't flattering) but back when I was in better shape I would wear it casually...never to work though. If I wouldn't wear it to work, I wouldn't wear it to Mass.
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Topic: Modesty at Mass!!!
