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chicken lady
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| Posted: May 27 2007 at 10:51pm | IP Logged
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I am sooooo frustrated and alarmed by the clothing women find appropriate for mass. Today we attended a wedding, yes on Pentecost Sunday, and I was stunned by the womens clothing. All of the bridesmaids, and The BRIDE herself were sleeveless. 9 out of 10 women there were sleeveless or worse yet strapless  What is going on???? Why do women do this, I was so distracted during the mass, it was nearly impossible to pray. I sat with my eyes closed and head bowed for most of the liturgy.
How can good and loving people not see this as a problem??
My dd's were so taken back that I had to keep shushing them, then they wanted to know why Mrs so and so thought that it was OK to dress like that for mass.
Are we just really sheltered or do you find this jarring?
One poor girl went up to do the petitions and I prayed she would not bow or genuflect as I was certain her dress would split up, on the postive side she was one of the few wearing sleeves 
I expect this at the market or mall, but come on, can we not even dress for Mass any more????
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MommyD
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Ouch!!!
I consider myself modest and I wore a sleeveless summer top to Mass today. I've never thought that having uncovered arms was in any way immodest. I realize that I am a bit too "worldly" at times so maybe I'm wrong on this issue but I don't think you should let bare arms and shoulders at Mass bother you and your daughters.
Melissa
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chicken lady
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| Posted: May 28 2007 at 4:46am | IP Logged
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modest dress
Vatican dress code
No offense intended!
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Cheryl
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I wore a sleeveless dress at my wedding 10 years ago. My mother always went sleeveless, so I didn't ever consider that it would be inappropriate. I learned about modesty from reading this message board.
I agree that there are many people dressed immodestly for Mass, but because of my experience, I assume that they are unaware.
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StephanieA
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Dear Chari,
With 3 teenage sons, I find the immodest dress at Mass both unappropriate and an occasion of sin for my sons and so do they
When teen girls wear tight, short jean skirts and tight knit tops right in front of a 19 year old guy, do I wonder that the guy's thoughts wonder at Mass?
That said, my sister is planning her wedding and she is having a HECK of a time finding suitable attire. She is ordering the dress from a Mormon site, I think...at our last conversation. My mother ended up making my bridesmaid dresses because my bridesmaids were my 4 sisters and they were very young. I didn't care for any of "those" styles.
It is VERY difficult to choose something decent from what the normal wedding clothiers offer.
Blessings,
Stephanie
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Mary G
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| Posted: May 28 2007 at 8:11am | IP Logged
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It's so funnny that many parts of Europe have us beat here -- many churches (including St. Peter's) won't let you in unless your shoulders are covered. And actually, with the big old churches, they're so cool (temp wise as well as architecturally  ) that you need a shawl or shrug or something ....
I'm with Chicken Lady -- especially for "big deal" Masses (like a wedding or Sundays) -- it's very hard to see men come in wearing shorts, or women wearing short-shorts, or super tight, revealing all.
I try to pray for them -- and more importantly for me not to be judgemental -- and tell myself at least they're at Mass. I guess what gets me is that many of these same people would dress appropriately for an office dinner, opera or other occasion. I think it's poor formation and needs to be addressed from the pulpit or thru the diocesan newspaper or parish bulletin.
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Lorri
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Modesty is something that is learned, but not often taught. Just like we all have different standards on what is OK for our children to watch on TV, people have different standards about modesty. Modesty for many people is thinking "Hey, my private parts were covered!" or "At least I wasn't flaunting anything." I don't think anyone would deliberately show up to Mass or a wedding trying to be immodest or disrespectful.
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chicken lady
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Actually....I heard 2 college age girls talking about their dresses, the one wearing a strapless, red, skin tight, dress remarked, " it's a wedding and I want a husband" My girls heard this as well, as we were standing in the receiving line.
MAry good point, I heard a sermon last month where the priest addressed modesty at mass, and asked if we would wear these clothes to the examples you stated. I do hear being preached, I wonder if people want to hear and own it.
As for being judgemental, I asked a priest this last night. Knowing my intention he reminded me that we can judge a action, the problem lies in judging the heart. I KNOW these women don't intend to cause harm, but I do think too many want the attention, thus leading others to sin. As Stephanie pointed out, this is so hard for young men, we do have an obligation to our brothers!
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Carole N.
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Our priest deliberately keeps it cooler in the church during the summer in an attempt to have the ladies dress more appropriately. Even with a jacket on, I find that I am sometimes quite chilly!
But we still have young ladies come in immodest clothing, shorts, jeans ... and the young men as well.
I did not know this about sleeveless clothing. I will have to go and check out the referenced documents. Thanks so much for sharing this information. Formation is a never ending process, but one that needs to be pursued.
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 Carole ... in Wales
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Betsy
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+JMJ+
This topic is so dear to my heart. I think that proper Mass Attire is a very important topic to bring back holiness and reverence to our Church. As well as, for us as a people to present an outward sign that shows our inward disposition.
I have read many books and articles about modesty. As I have changed my whole wardrobe to follow Mary’s Modest Rules I have experience many fruits…as many other have also experienced on this board. I could write about a lot of aspects that I have experienced but I will stick to Mass Attire.
In my own personal experience with Modesty began 8 years ago with Mass Attire. I hadn’t read anything, it was simply a though put on my heart by the Holy Sprit. My first “rule” was to always wear my very best clothes to Mass. This is the most important “activity” one can do in their life. I often though about how much time women spend to get ready for a date or special gathering. Shouldn’t we spend at least that much time, once a week, preparing to be face to face with our Lord?
After switching to wearing skirts and my very nicest clothes to Mass I began reading more about Modesty. After much reflection and praying a quote from the Bible and a quote from Padre Pio have governed my “rules” for dressing at Mass.
First the passage John 21:7 has always stayed with me and given me much food for thought.
7Then the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, "It is the Lord!" As soon as Simon Peter heard him say, "It is the Lord," he wrapped his outer garment around him (for he had taken it off) and jumped into the water.
Before Peter came to see the Lord he put on his outer garment to come before the Lord, Jesus Christ. I think that this really address the, “Well at least we are here” attitudes, etc. Peter covered his body before coming before the Lord. He was fishing, it was hot, he was out in a boat. Why didn’t he just swim on shore to see the Lord? Our First Pope knew that he needed to be properly dressed before he went before the Lord, not matter what he was doing before.
The Second quote is from Padre Pio.
Padre Pio wouldn't tolerate low-necked dresses or short, tight skirts, and he forbade his spiritual daughters to wear transparent stockings. Each year his severity increased. He stubbornly dismissed them from his confession, even before they set foot inside, if he judged them to be improperly dressed. On some mornings he drove away one after another, until he ended up hearing very few confessions. His brothers observed these drastic purges with a certain uneasiness and decided to fasten a sign on the church door:
"By Padre Pio's explicit wish, women must enter the confessional wearing skirts at least 8 INCHES BELOW THE KNEE. It is forbidden to borrow longer dresses in church and to wear them to confession."
From this quote I have really taken to heart the idea that a skirt (not pants) must be AT LEAST 8 inches below the knees to enter the confessional! This is a bear minimum; we should make every effort to exceed this.
Since reading this I have been drawn to wear full length skirts and long sleeve shirts always when I am in the presence of the Lord. My husband and ds’s always wear long sleeves and pants to Mass.
To sum this thought up I think we really need to take a long look back in history to understand proper dress. It’s so easy to adopt the attitude that I am doing better than the norm so I am okay. This is such a slippery slope attitude.
Truly I don’t intend the offend anyone. I have dressed very immodestly at Mass for many years and it has taken me 8 years to come to where I am now. However, we need to set the standard high and set it where it is pleasing to the Lord!
Betsy
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Martha
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well I wore a sleeveless top and the only dress I've ever owned 8 inches below the knee was my wedding dress. In fact, until 2 weeks ago I literally didn't own more than 1 skirt! Now I have 2.
I'll respectfuly disagree with you ladies.
There is room for moderate attire. A sleeveless top and a median skirt does not equal dressing immodest, imho.
I wear jeans to mass the vast majority of the time and have taken my children to mass in shorts. I've even gone to mass in shorts myself at times. (No not short shorts either. No one is seeing anything private.)
If, for whatever reasons, you feel dressing in your preferred manner aids you in holiness, then that's great. But it is not a requirement of our faith and it is perfectly possible to be reverent without long sleeves and skirts.
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guitarnan
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I am most concerned about too-revealing clothing, not so much about skirt length (see the "too-revealing" part, above). Last weekend the young lady who was our lector wore a long white skirt...but no slip. Ack. The lighting was not kind to her. I so, so wanted to say something to her, but didn't.
One thing to keep in mind is that modesty is also a cultural thing. My 5 years in Italy taught me that! Young women there wear clothing I'd never let my daughter wear (at any age) during the summer...very tight, spaghetti straps, translucent fabrics...and it's not considered immodest there. (Except, of course, when going into a church!) So...everyone there respects the church dress code when in a church, but dresses according to cultural norms when not in church. I dressed my way (opaque fabric, looser-fitting tops) and felt fine.
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J.Anne
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I would consider myself a 'good and loving' person, but sleeveless shirts are fairly standard around here. We live in a hot climate and arms just don't offend me that much. It's not what I personally choose to wear and I would agree that it isn't ideal, but I think you are coming down a little hard on people. The bride probably just thought she looked nice - and I agree with Cheryl - was probably unaware of modesty guidelines. I'm not saying it's right, but I can't see being so very offended that I couldn't pray at Mass.
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Lisbet
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I see it as the frog begining to boil...
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lapazfarm
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Hmmm... I wore a lovely sleeveless silk top and knee length skirt to mass yesterday and I felt very feminine and modest.
I agree that tight or revealing (short, tight, see-through, low-cut) clothing are inappropriate at mass, but I rarely see that here, even from teen girls. I guess we are just more conservative in church in this area?
But the sleeveless thing? Ok with me. It is summer, after all.
Brides will wear whatever makes them feel most beautiful. I don't have a problem with strapless bridal dresses. I've seen some lovely, holy catholic women wear them and I do not doubt their reverence at all.
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MommyD
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I've been thinking about this since last night and here are my questions.
First, isn't modesty relative? Bare arms aren't uncommon anymore and I don't know any man or boy who would be offended or distracted by them.
Second, I agree that there is a huge problem with the clothing that young women are wearing in general and especially at Mass. Aren't I being a better example to an under-clad young women in my trendy, fully-covered sleevless top and pants then someone in a skirt 8 inches below the knee?
Melissa
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stefoodie
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I agree with it being a cultural thing too. Growing up in a tropical country, one would be considered crazy to wear long or 3/4-length sleeves at Mass all the time. (I was always the odd one as I never felt comfortable wearing sleeveless blouses or dresses until I came to the US.) Especially in churches that didn't have fans, much less air-conditioning!! We had A LOT of those.
However, I do think a line should be drawn between what's immodest and what's not. I too am bothered when young women come to church in short skirts -- one teen was wearing a micro-skirt that barely covered her undies last week. I wish our priest would say something, if not at the pulpit then in the newsletter. It's hard enough telling our boys to concentrate at Mass!
It's also a mother-daughter relationship thing. How do we expect young women to dress decently when their mothers won't? My SIL allows her 18-yo to wear see through blouses, pants that fall way below where they should be, way too much makeup, etc. Needless to say, the mom wears plunging necklines too. I don't hesitate to put my foot down, and neither does dh, when our dd wears something inappropriate. My dad was the same way with me -- I remember as newlyweds, my dh and I got a lecture when we dared show up at Mass wearing shorts -- we thought it was okay because it was summer and other people were doing it; we obviously know better now.
It has changed so much through the years though. My mom remembers a time when if one went to receive Holy Eucharist wearing a sleeveless top, the priest would have a cape (?) ready to put over her before he gave her the Host.
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Celeste
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One upon a time those skirts 8" below the knee were considered immodest; the glimpse of an ankle was quite titillating.
So, yes, modesty is relative. I don't think anyone here is saying that all standards should be thrown overboard, but that time and place and activity (as Pope John Paul wrote) impact modesty standards.
Celeste
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Betsy
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+JMJ+
It’s interesting to me that so many of us have such differing views on Modesty. It might be less interesting if we weren’t so united in our Faith and our “counter cultural” ways of teaching our children. Each of us are truly, truly trying to do our best to live out our Faith in the best way we know how.
What I struggle with the most on this issue is this: Is their a moral right and wrong to Modesty (i.e. one rule for everyone) or is it truly discernable to everyone based on cultural, preferences, climate, etc. I don’t even pretend to know the answer to this, but I am interested in what others think.
I will admit I do struggle with responses that are relative in nature. This logic is so often used in discussion about absolute issues (abortion, contraception, etc), which we will all agree there is an absolute truth to. (i.e. It’s never okay to use contraception, it’s not a matter of ‘what you think’)
So, where does Modesty stand?
Please no mud slinging…I am truly trying to seek the truth.
Betsy
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MicheleQ
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I would agree that modesty is relative to time and place and activity but even that presents a problem. Where's the line and who decides what is and isn't modest? One says sleeveless is OK and the other says no you must at least have sleeves while still another says that the sleeves must be at least 3/4 etc.. Some say skirts must be at least to the knee, while others say below, and still others define how far below. But gosh doesn't this somewhat sound like non-Catholic Christians churches who say they agree on the essentials but then can't agree what the essentials are? We agree that modesty is important but can't agree on what constitutes modesty.
I'll be honest, I'm still on the fence with the sleeveless thing. I don't ever wear them to mass personally because I do not feel comfortable in them but I do sometimes wear sleeveless tops here in my non-air conditioned home. I wear long skirts because they feel more modest to me, are most flattering to my shape and I like them.
I grew up Protestant (United Methodist) and I was taught that "Sunday best" meant best clothes, best hair, best attitude and best behavior. The best for God. I still practice that and I teach it to my children. I won't say I haven't ever gone to mass in jeans but it's rare and it never feels right. Maybe that's conditioning but I DO think that proper Mass attire is important and may well be the road to bringing back holiness and reverence to our Churches.
Like it or not what we wear IS an outward sign of our inward disposition. It is a message that we send to the world of just how important (or not) our Faith is to us. You may not like that but it's the reality. People make judgments all the time - it's a normal part of life. My life is already a sign of contradiction and I want it to be attractive as well. I certainly do not want to be a stumbling block or cause of confusion.
I don't think anyone here is questioning another person's holiness based on what they wear - I certainly didn't pick that up, but doesn't it at least give you pause that there are dress standards for St. Peter's that aren't in place here? It does me. It's an example given to us and I wonder if perhaps we shouldn't give it greater consideration.
The dress code is no shorts, bare shoulders or miniskirts.
This sign is outside as a visual:
That's still pretty liberal if you think about it. But it's the minimum and I figure I can at least do that.
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Topic: Modesty at Mass!!!
