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hylabrook1
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This reminds me of people who refer to their dc (or other peoples' dc) as *accidents*. What a negative perspective to take on human beings!
I do see what Martha is saying about fertility having potential to be a cross. Anything that involves our dying to ourselves is a cross. That is not a bad thing. It is a means of spiritual growth. But especially for those who conceive easily, each decision to be intimate with dh carries with it the need to answer the question, "am I willing to become pregnant now?", which has as a sort of subtext, "am I willing to put my comfort (or whatever else) aside in order to accept a child now?" Inasmuch as that involves self-sacrifice, it would seem to qualify as a cross.
BUT, when someone just throws out the idea that "fertility is a cross" without a more detailed discussion, it does sound like a negative, sad statement. Hoping, in charity, that this is not what Sara's friend was really intending.
Peace,
Nancy
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SaraP
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Thanks, ladies there's a lot to think about here.
Lisbet wrote:
| But just to really round out the discussion, couldn't one consider fertility itself a cross when it involves prolonged abstenance OR either husband or wife having that in the back of their minds when they are intimate? |
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Not to pick on you, Lisbet, but this, in a nutshell is what makes me so sad. It's isn't the gift of fertility that necessitates abstinence or causes people to be afraid or anxious about another pregnancy. It's all the stuff the comes along with being a fallen human being: illness, dangerous or difficult pregnancies, marital problems, lack of money, lack of energy, lack of support. In God's original plan none of these things would have been and I don't think there would ever have been a need or desire to avoid pregnancy.
The cross is that we don't get to experience things the way God first intended and while I completely understand the anxiety that comes with a not-desired pregnancy (and certainly don't think less of my friend for feeling anxious or upset) it's sad to me that the wonderous, amazing privilege of being co-creators with God gets the blame rather than the sad state of life after the fall.
Does that make any kind of sense?
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Martha
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hylabrook1 wrote:
| BUT, when someone just throws out the idea that "fertility is a cross" without a more detailed discussion, it does sound like a negative, sad statement. Hoping, in charity, that this is not what Sara's friend was really intending. |
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Oh I completely agree with you Nancy and given that this is a Catholic board and a large family forum, I really don't think anyone here intends any such context.
Sara -
I don't think, I hope not anyhow, that your friend has such an opinion. I don't know anyone besides Catholic who use such a term, and she was writing to a Catholic. It sounds to me as though she is looking for a Simeon to help her carry her cross?
"This is my cross! Will no one help me carry it?!"
Maybe you can ease her load in some small way?
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MarilynW
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I am not sure this is quite on topic - but I was reminded of it when I read Sara's first post. I was visiting someone in the hospital who just had a baby - and the other women visiting were giving her advice on going on the "pill" right away - so she did not get pregnant while nursing. I just felt like crying.
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Lisbet
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| Posted: May 23 2007 at 7:15pm | IP Logged
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Good points Martha.
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Maryan
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Martha wrote:
| And to tell them their cross isn't really a cross is a bit unfair and hurtful to them too. |
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Oh dear... in trying to be senstive to our infertile sisters, it seems I have still been insensitive.
I am by no means trying to take crosses away or tell that they are not crosses. And certainly not to women like yourselves who have been open to life for much longer than my six years of marriage.
To explain, I have several infertile friends and family members -- I have seen their tears shed over comments made when other lovely Catholic women were "plainly speaking" -- but not being sensitive to the invisible cross that their sister Catholic bears in her empty arms. It is the sight of these tears that made me suggest that we just rename the cross for THEIR sake. And I do think that there are some of these women who bear this cross here and read these posts... just to see how some of you wonderful women live with a full house!
But I'm truly sorry if this suggestion gave offense.
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Maryan
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teachingmyown
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So many good points have been made here. I almost posted earlier but couldn't put my thoughts together.
I think what it comes down to is that we need to hold our tongues unless certain about those we are sharing with. A certain amount of "honesty", as Martha was talking about, is fine with those who are likely to misinterpret our comments, such as those already skeptical of this lifestyle, like Lisa's mom, and those who struggle with infertility who may feel that we are insensitive to their cross. But we must be careful not to give the impression that we are somehow "stuck" in this life, or that we are ungrateful for the gift that our fertility is.
We all need a place to say "Phew, this is tough" or "I am really worried about having another baby right now, not sure if I can handle it, etc." This forum is the right place for that, a family reunion or homeschool support meeting probably is not the right place.
I love my children. I am thrilled to be expecting again. But this is a hard life for me. It is my cross because I am so unorganized and inconsistent. There have been times over the years where I begged God NOT to send another baby yet. We have always been open, but not always ready. There have been times where we have avoided intimacy because that month we felt overwhelmed. God has been good to us. I honestly don't think I could handle what Lisa and Martha have. A baby every two years is a challenge enough. But we rely on God to give us what we need with each new child. If they came closer, I would trust in His help.
Sorry if this has gone long or off track.
Sara, I would tend to feel the same way about your friend. To even use the language of it being a cross, and her continued openness to life, points to someone who is just overwhelmed with her current situation. She needs prayers and maybe an ear, a dinner, and an affirmation that it is okay to be worried and even a little disappointed about the pregnancy. She can then work through it and will most likely be thrilled to greet her new blessing months down the road.
Saying a prayer for her!
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Molly
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Martha
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*note here, my internet is wigging out on me.. so I have no idea if you are seeing the same script/format I am or not - I sure hope not!*
Okay.. first I'm sorry to have hijacked this thread with my wee little "um" thoughts and truely have no desire to stomp on any feelings on either end of the fertility spectrum.
Molly - I agree, context and audience matter.
Quote:
| I completely understand the anxiety that comes with a not-desired pregnancy (and certainly don't think less of my friend for feeling anxious or upset) it's sad to me that the wonderous, amazing privilege of being co-creators with God gets the blame |
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Sara - This is the misunderstanding. At least in MY case. I've never had an "un-desired pregnancy". Obviously I have many modern options (faithful or sadly otherwise) that I have the free will to partake of. I CHOOSE to suffer out of love and desire to allow His will to be. It is all of those great things you mention. That does not make it less of a cross. It is simply what must be endured to receive the gift. I'm probably doing a terrible job of explaining this perspective. I just want to make clear that a woman can feel this way at times and it is not in any way to mean that she is undesiring of the pregnancy or her children.
Quote:
| I have several infertile friends and family members -- I have seen their tears shed over comments made when other lovely Catholic women were "plainly speaking" -- but not being sensitive to the invisible cross that their sister Catholic bears in her empty arms. It is the sight of these tears that made me suggest that we just rename the cross for THEIR sake. |
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Maryan - You have not offended me in the least. I'm trying not to offend anyone. We are all just sitting here at the table sharing our thoughts and hearts on this friend of Sara's that's having a hard time. 
Might I suggest that what you describe goes both ways? I have had people who have none or 1 or whatever and can't have more children say things like, "You don't understand what it's like to lose a baby or worry over a child like I do! You have EIGHT!" or knowing I cannot even say a word about my own difficulties because the response is likely to be blown off because "well at least you have a choice - I don't because I can't."
Now, I know none of you nice ladies would say that to me. And to be fair I've received those comments from some very nice ladies who simply made assumptions about me out of ignorance, not malice. Mothers of many have often suffered their fair share of mc's and it's not less painful just because they already have 4 or whatever. Not one of my children is expendable. I worry and fret and cry and rejoice over my 8th just as much, maybe even MORE, than I did/do with my 1st.
Rather than hear "this is my cross" and think "how sad", might I suggest we hear "this is my cross" and think "can I be a Simeon to this woman in some way, however small?"
When someone is exhausted and weary from carrying their cross, they don't need you to rename the weight, they need you to pick up a corner. Telling them that's sad and maybe they shouldn't call their cross a cross because it might hurt someone else's feelings just ADDS to the weight of their cross.
I wouldn't call my dear friends who are having problems conceiving to share my troubled heart on this matter. I completely understand that it might hurt them and I would not do that intentionally. But that does not appear to be what Sara's friend has done and I assure you it was not ever my intent with my post either. I simply wanted to say...
Well I guess I just wanted to say that Sara's friend is not alone and that it doesn't mean she doesn't love and want her baby just as much as anyone else.
Quote:
| I honestly don't think I could handle what Lisa and Martha have. |
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Molly - I don't know about Lisa, but I honestly don't think I could handle it either! That's one of the blessings of taking up the cross. You find you are far more able than you ever thought and God's hand is working far more than you can see when in the moment. 
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SaraP
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Martha wrote:
Quote:
I completely understand the anxiety that comes with a not-desired pregnancy (and certainly don't think less of my friend for feeling anxious or upset) it's sad to me that the wonderous, amazing privilege of being co-creators with God gets the blame
Sara - This is the misunderstanding. At least in MY case. I've never had an "un-desired pregnancy". |
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No, she was quite clear that it was her intention to avoid pregnancy and that she was . . . angry? disgusted? . . . that she had conceived. I'm not sure I can convey the tone (and maybe it doesn't really matter), but this is not quite a case of abandoning oneself to God's will and then being overwhelmed by what that entails. Not that I think for minute that she will love or appreciate this child any less once he or she arrives - and probably well before then - and of course you all are right that she does see that this child IS God's will.
And in any case, this:
Martha wrote:
Rather than hear "this is my cross" and think "how sad", might I suggest we hear "this is my cross" and think "can I be a Simeon to this woman in some way, however small?"
When someone is exhausted and weary from carrying their cross, they don't need you to rename the weight, they need you to pick up a corner. Telling them that's sad and maybe they shouldn't call their cross a cross because it might hurt someone else's feelings just ADDS to the weight of their cross. |
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. . . is a much more important point. Thank you.
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Lisbet
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Molly, you obviously read my post before I deleted it! 
But, once again, I find myself nodding heartily in agreement to all of what Martha said.
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JennGM
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I usually don't peruse this part of the boards. This is an interesting thread...and long. I don't think I could bring in any new insight, but I just wanted to chime in. I can see how your friend would write that, as a friend to a friend. While we're happy with the gift of life, having it come so readily, so easy, so often, can be a cross. I think it implies seeing the gift, but in early stages of pregnancy, you easily can see the cross!
I've carried the cross of infertility, but with dear friends and family we've discussed how "the grass isn't always greener". There are hardships in all the paths that God gives us. So many time an infertile couple can get a skewed view that their cross is bigger than everyone else's. No, it isn't. It's just different. I may have just one child, and have disappointments, but juggling a large family is hard work, as so many of you can testify.
But you all know that already.
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Lisbet
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Quote:
| No, she was quite clear that it was her intention to avoid pregnancy and that she was . . . angry? disgusted? . . . that she had conceived. I'm not sure I can convey the tone (and maybe it doesn't really matter), but this is not quite a case of abandoning oneself to God's will and then being overwhelmed by what that entails |
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(*disclaimer, it is not my intention to offend or open an ugly can of worms here. I have been so blunt about everything lately for some reason I am having difficulty finding any 'coushin' in my wording,I have deleted a few of my posts here already)
I wonder if this is a result of one of those downfalls of promoting NFP as the 'bomb'. Our throwing around the words "responsible parenthood" in a loose way.
I know that for me, personally, comepletely turning my fertility over to Gods Providence has definetly lessened my view of fertility as a 'cross'. I don't get upset if we concieve because we were trying to avoid. I don't get upset if we don't concieve because we were trying to. I have abandoned by frustrations and confusion over concieving during heavy nursing, my husband (and I ) don't get frustrated over planning abstinance around fertile times. We have never (since our first, but our mindset was completely different, we were not even married.) experienced an 'undesired' pregnancy. We have come to living out married life without expectations when it comes to fertility. We have come to live it with more trust. I often think that when we try to 'avoid' or 'achieve', we given an 'in' for frustrations and disappointments, we come to trust more on a method, so to speak.
Now, all that said, I do view many of the hardships of raising a big brood as a cross. I no longer think "I can't handle this." Because God has proven over and over again that I can when I depend on Him alone. I do get all muddled and perplexed at just how He wants me to do this, and I am totally working on deepening my trust in this area! But, I am stupid and weak.
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amyable
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JennGM wrote:
| I've carried the cross of infertility, but with dear friends and family we've discussed how "the grass isn't always greener". There are hardships in all the paths that God gives us. So many time an infertile couple can get a skewed view that their cross is bigger than everyone else's. No, it isn't. It's just different. |
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Very clearly and nicely said, Jenn. 
I've been on both sides - primary infertility, months of secondary where I thought I'd never get pg again, 4 early miscarriages, plus having more children than I can handle, because we are open to life. And I'm adopted, and lived with a mother who had secondary infertility. So maybe I'm on 3 sides, lol. It's a strange combination.
I don't have much to add (esp. for fear of being insulting/rude because my thoughts are so jumbled) - but having been on both sides, and in talking to others, I really agree with Jenn that for most of us it really is a "grass is greener" thing. Yes, my grass may seem green with my 4 going on 5 children, but if you look closely, that green is weeds! (at least from my perspective - you should see our real lawn all a beautiful shade of green from all the clover and crabgrass!)
Yikes, I think I just compared my children to weeds. I didn't mean it like that! But I have shed MANY MANY more tears in trying to handle my brood (therefore thinking my recent time of increased fertility as a real cross) than in the time when I was not getting pg and having miscarriages. It's just how I'm made up. It's MY cross. It may not be comprehensible to those on the other side of the fence, but I still need help carrying it (lots ).
I'm sorry this is not very well said. I just want to thank everyone for sharing so beautifully and openly, especially those willing to step out and say the possibly "unpopular" thing that having many children, fertility, and all that goes with it can be a real, true, deep and heavy cross for some, depending on their skills, baggage, and home situation. And that is **OK**.
I'm gonna go cry now. 
Love to you all...
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Amy
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The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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SuzanneG
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amyable wrote:
Yikes, I think I just compared my children to weeds. I didn't mean it like that! |
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WE know what you mean, Amy.
This is a great thread and has helped me sort out many of the feelings I've had over and over again during the past 4 years or so.
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Martha
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I completely agree with Lisa and think very much the same things.
[ETA: Yikes! Except I do NOT think you are stupid or weak! Lisa, you really do need to move to Oklahoma. You could call it an act of charity for my sake.  ]
Jenn and Amy - Very true.
Forgive my laziness, but another poster mentioned we shouldn't give the impression of being "stuck"...
hmmm... which has me wondering yet again.
I'll confess. I do feel stuck sometimes. Yes, I have free will and all that. However my choices are pretty much have baby as God wills or don't have baby according to His will. From my personal perspective that's not much of a choice. The idea of not doing His will in this area is just not a real option to me. I do not feel I have just cause to say NO to Him, or my dh, on this at this time.
For the friend who started this whole wormy conversation - I imagine she feels pretty "stuck" with it. I mean, I don't know what she was or was not doing to prevent a pregnancy, but she is certainly pregnant now and there's is no ethical way out of that, so unless she wants to turn her back on God's will or her faith, yes, she is stuck in the muck for a time.
So.. to ME... it's okay to be stuck. As long as we are willing to bloom where we are planted. I'm stuck right here right now. It's not a bed of roses, but most days it's not a bed of crabgrass either. Most days I kind of like being stuck here.
Sara - I'm sorry your friend is having such a hard time making God's will her will at this time and I'll be praying this baby of hers will bring special blessings into her life to create a change of heart in her to turn gladly to God's will for her family.
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JodieLyn
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oh Martha.. it is a bed of roses.. someone just forgot to get thornless roses
(can we tell I'm overwhelmed today?)
It can be hard to get used to the idea that GOD gets the deciding vote no matter what you and your dh have attempted to choose. At least when you're brought up with all the *stuff* about being "responsible" and the assumption that you have some sort of control.
Somewhere around #3 it finally hit me that it's not that you decide when to have a child.. but rather you only decide if there's a reason not to at that moment in time. And you can still be overruled. But that isn't all bad either 
OK so I wear rose-colored glasses as much as possible
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PDyer
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JodieLyn wrote:
it's not that you decide when to have a child.. but rather you only decide if there's a reason not to at that moment in time. And you can still be overruled. |
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Or not. 
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SaraP
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Lisbet wrote:
| I wonder if this is a result of one of those downfalls of promoting NFP as the 'bomb'. Our throwing around the words "responsible parenthood" in a loose way. |
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That's exactly how it seemed to me and I think that is probably why it struck me so.
The 'doingness' of NFP slides so easily out of being an effort to cooperate with God and into an illusion of really being in control. Which we aren't. Ever.
But it can really hurt when that illusion shatters the way it did for my friend and I guess I wish that she could have been spared at least that pain (even if the anxiety and feelings of being overwhelmed remained) by not believing so much in the illusion in the first place.
And of course this a particularly wormy/thorny thing for me because it's so hard to talk and write about NFP in a way that doesn't contribute to all the confusion about responsible parenthood, who is really in control, etc.
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Karen E.
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JennGM wrote:
| I've carried the cross of infertility, but with dear friends and family we've discussed how "the grass isn't always greener". There are hardships in all the paths that God gives us. So many time an infertile couple can get a skewed view that their cross is bigger than everyone else's. No, it isn't. It's just different. |
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Yes, I agree -- very well said, Jenn. We each carry our own, specially designed crosses.
I'm reminded of something that happened years ago, when I had my fifth miscarriage. A friend of mine was talking to a friend of hers, who had eight children and was pregnant with twins. She lost one of the twins and expressed relief to my friend that at least she'd have "only one more instead of two." My friend was saddened by that remark, and brought up my situation -- that I had only two children (at the time - we've since been blessed with our "Ramona") and would *love* another gift from God, but couldn't have one. The friend had a new perspective on the pregnancy and her fertility, I think.
These are the kinds of things that prompted me to write:
"It seems a cruel irony that a woman with eight children yells at God for the latest positive pregnancy test on the same day that another woman blames Him for the loss of her baby. It is not a cruel irony, but a holy one. Only the Lord knows exactly what we need — He is purifying each of us in His own way, allowing what He knows to be best, as we struggle to understand His movement in our lives" (part of this article, A Good Catholic Family.)
It's true that my friend's friend had not felt the pain of loss, but it's also true that I don't know what it's like to have eight children. Not that children themselves are ever a cross, but particular circumstances can bring crosses.
Sadly, what may be lost on women who complain of their fertility (and I'm not talking of anyone *here*! I think this is the perfect and safe place to vent and share one's "particular circumstances" and I think we all agree on that!) is exactly that fact: that the children themselves are always and forever a blessing.
Sara, perhaps your friend needs the renewed perspective that my friend's friend received. I'm not sure how that might best be brought to her attention, but we all need that now and again.
I'm so sorry she feels that way about having conceived again, but we can pray that God will use this child to help your friend on her road to holiness.
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Karen E.
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Karen E.
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SaraP wrote:
The 'doingness' of NFP slides so easily out of being an effort to cooperate with God and into an illusion of really being in control. Which we aren't. Ever. |
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I completely agree with you, Sara -- and this is what's tough about some NFP conversations. Instead of stressing that times of abstinence may be necessary when one is unable to accept the gift of a child, we can slide into "control mode" and then be disappointed or upset when our controls don't "work."
__________________
God bless,
Karen E.
mom to three on earth, and several souls in God's care
Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: This made me want to cry
