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teachingmom
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| Posted: May 18 2007 at 12:01am | IP Logged
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Regarding the blessing of children at communion, my pastor, who feels very strongly about protecting the liturgy from abuse, explained that we do not do that because it is not in the rubrics. He is very particular about adding or subtracting anything from the Mass. It does seem like a nice gesture and symbolic of the spiritual union of the baptized children who are too young to receive the Eucharist to Christ and the rest of the Church community. But from what he said, technically, it shouldn't be done, since everything that should be done in a Mass is laid out for the celebrant in the rubrics.
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~Irene (Mom to 6 girls, ages 7-19)
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JennyMaine
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| Posted: May 18 2007 at 7:01am | IP Logged
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I've only attended the Latin Mass a couple times. I loved it, but did feel lost the first time. Here in Maine, it is only offered in the chapel of the cathedral in Portland. This is over a 2 hr drive each away. How I wish it were closer.
I was contemplating this over the weekend. When we started attending our current church, it was clear that our priest is repulsed by giving Communion on the tongue. He always makes a little face and jerks his hand back like he's angry. We started receiving in the hand and only one or two elderly people receive on the tongue. This weekend after Mass my 12yod commented that it breaks her heart not to receive on the tongue.  That made me so sad.
You know what's funny? Our church is gorgeous - it is like being in a cathedral. We have an amazing choir with pipe organ, and they sing traditional Latin hymns and we've begun doing some responses in Latin in the past few months. But here is the congregation, in their flip-flops, jeans and crop tops. It is so incongruous, if you see what I mean. It is the distraction of the other parishioners that detracts from the Mass for me. It wasn't like this at the Latin Mass!
For several years I worked as parish secretary for our little rural church. It was really something to see. One good priest left and a new one came. Out went the bells and patens. The confessional was "renovated" to encourage face-to-face confession only, etc. He was disrespectful to the Eucharist and refused to elevate the Host. Then the next priest came in. Totally devout - where are the bells and patens? (I said excitedly, "Relegated to the basement, sir, can I go get them? Really? Ya mean it? Alright!"  ) He was there for 3 years and was wonderful. Next priest comes in - why are you using bells and patens? Put them in the basement. Sigh. Right now, I'd like consistency and reverence. When I don't see it, I feel really tired!
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--JennyMaine, Mom to Catherine (17) and Sam (15) "The countenance is a reflection of the soul. You should always have a calm and serene countenance." -- Therese of Lisieux
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alicegunther
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| Posted: May 18 2007 at 7:36am | IP Logged
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mamalove wrote:
quoting from "from the housetops" a publication put out by the the slaves of the immaculate heart of mary
"The sense of what we are about at Mass has been lost. Today for liturgy to be "meaningful" it must entertain the people and provide an emotional charge. It must be emphasized that Liturgy is primarily at the service of Doctrine. The doctrinal essesce of the Mass as a sacrafice must be safegaurded by a liturgy that is precise in its expression and changeless in form since dogma is neither subject to change nor popular opinion.
As our Redemption came from the Cross embedded in the rock of Calvary, so too, for centuries the effects of this redemption have streamed from the solid bedrock of the Tridentine Mass. Countless saints, apostles, virgins and martyrs have drunk from this supernal source! its rediscovery will produce many more."
i wholeheartedly agree. i withstood one to many "Jesus Christ superstarish" masses and other terrible forms of abuse to get me over my hump regarding the Latin Mass. Now we go as often as possible, and it is converting my husband and bringing my children up in reverence and awe of the Holy Mass. |
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Moderator's Note:
I can understand how you feel about Novus Ordo masses that are not performed properly, but please exercise extreme caution with respect to "From the Housetops" and the Slaves of the Immaculate. The website of the Slaves of the Immaculate states very carefully and and I would say too specifically, "We are loyal to the Holy See of St. Peter in the person of our currently reigning Holy Father, Our Lord Pope, Benedict XVI, for whom we pray daily. (My emphasis added.) [Please click here to see this in context.]
The group also includes a statement on the front page of its website: "The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary are a Congregation of religious brothers and sisters dedicated to a two-fold Crusade: the propagation and defense of Catholic dogma--especially extra ecclesiam nulla salus--and the conversion of America to the one, true Church."
The emphasis on the "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" doctrine (the teaching that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church) is troubling given the fact that the group has been corrected in its interpretation of this specific teaching, and the group's founder, Father Leonard Feeney, was excommunicated because of it. Please see Church Texts Condemning Father Leonard Feeney.
It is also important to remember and emphasize the beauty, reverence, and legitimacy of the Novus Ordo Mass. We cannot judge the Mass itself based on abuses that have been perpetrated against it in certain places at certain times.
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Love, Alice
mother of seven!
     
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Brew yourself a cup of tea, and come for a visit!
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mamalove
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thanks for the info, i had no idea. i do love their magazine, vey faithfull.
i do agree there is beauty and reverence in the N.O. Mass. when we do not go to the Latin Mass, we have a nearby priest from Ghana who does a very reverent N.O Mass, for which we are very grateful. That is when we feel we are witnesses to faithfulness in that church, because many of the people there unfortunately have not a clue to why they are there. Like Fr Larry Richards says, people are just picking their noses and being like "uhhhh, boring, im at mass..." they do desperately need our example of love for the Holy Mass....
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alicegunther
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| Posted: May 18 2007 at 4:35pm | IP Logged
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mamalove wrote:
| they do desperately need our example of love for the Holy Mass.... |
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I think you have really hit upon something here. It is such an important ministry to model this love for the Mass, not only for our children's sake, but even for those around us.
Thank you for giving me something to ponder!
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Love, Alice
mother of seven!
Cottage Blessings
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Bella
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| Posted: May 19 2007 at 9:36pm | IP Logged
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This has been so enlightening! I have a much better understanding of the different Masses. Though admittedly, I do feel more ignorant about my new faith more than ever. As a four year old convert, I have been feeling like I have most definitely had the full comversion of faith, and am just now on the brink of a conversion of intellect. My dh (not Catholic), has encouraged me to attend the Latin Mass here. I have been afraid, barely feeling like I fit in our beautiful Catholic (NO?) Mass, let alone a Latin one. And truth be told, much of my fear, has been based on the extreme tensions that are rampant in our homeschool group. I think I now have a better understanding of the reasons behind the cliques and judgements being thrown around. Perhaps with more prayer and patience, I can throw away my old feelings of not being good enough, and actually step into the Latin Mass. Right now, I am feeling extremely blessed that I live in a very conservative, orthodox diocese with Mass being said as it should, my dd and I being able to go to confession as often as we want/need, with the option of a wonderful Mass offered every day all day. 
Thankyou all so much for your faith-filled input!
Warmly,
Christy
Mom to dd(10) and ds(5.5)
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SuzanneT
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| Posted: May 19 2007 at 10:32pm | IP Logged
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JennyMaine wrote:
| But here is the congregation, in their flip-flops, jeans and crop tops. It is so incongruous, if you see what I mean. |
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I thought this only happened in MY church (south Florida)
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alicegunther
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blessed2Bmom wrote:
Right now, I am feeling extremely blessed that I live in a very conservative, orthodox diocese with Mass being said as it should, my dd and I being able to go to confession as often as we want/need, with the option of a wonderful Mass offered every day all day.
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This sounds like a dream! You are so blessed!
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Love, Alice
mother of seven!
Cottage Blessings
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Celeste
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blessed2Bmom wrote:
| I have been afraid, barely feeling like I fit in our beautiful Catholic (NO?) Mass, let alone a Latin one. |
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Christy, when you think about it, none of us "fits" in or is "good enough" to go to any kind of Mass, anywhere. We're mere creatures, invited to partake of the Divine Banquet, to offer to the Father His only Son, to stand with Mary at the foot of the Cross. Awesome and tremendous and horrifying. But to paraphrase St. Therese, we don't go to Mass because we are good, but to become good. We've been commanded to be perfect, and the Mass is the way Jesus makes it happen.
I think tensions arise when one group or another insists that "their" Mass is better, or confers more graces, or is more faithful to the Church. It's simply not the case. The Church is charged with making us saints. If the way we celebrate Mass cannot make us holy, then Holy Mother Church has betrayed us. If it is possible for her to betray us, then Jesus is a liar.
I am not talking about liturgical abuses or schismatic liturgies. We need to pray (very hard!) for those who inflict these horrors on the faithful, because what they do is not simply irritating. . . .
In a sense, Christy, you're ahead of those of us who are "cradle Catholics." You've had to work and study and answer objections and family obstacles and all that, and then take that leap of faith. Talk about the refiner's fire!
Celeste
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JennyMaine
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| Posted: May 20 2007 at 2:06pm | IP Logged
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This article is interesting:
Latin Mass
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--JennyMaine, Mom to Catherine (17) and Sam (15) "The countenance is a reflection of the soul. You should always have a calm and serene countenance." -- Therese of Lisieux
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teachingmom
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| Posted: May 21 2007 at 10:49pm | IP Logged
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And from Zenit on the same topic:
Vatican Official: Pope Has Plans for Latin Mass
Edited to add -- The direct link to the article itself doesn't work. I think the link above takes you to the main Zenit page, so look for the article title above for May 21.
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~Irene (Mom to 6 girls, ages 7-19)
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Chari
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I have been trying to follow this thread as best I can. We always attend the TLM. While looking for one in NYC, I found this here
This website has lots of great explanations.
Blessings,
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Chari...Take Up & Read
Dh Marty 27yrs...3 lovely maidens: Anne 24, Sarah 20 & Maddelyn 17 and 3 chivalrous sons: Matthew 22, Garrett 16 & Malachy 11
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chicken lady
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We too attend the TLM, or Maronite,or Byzantine. We do have a conservative N.O. we attend when we have to. We recently attended a NO mass that was so beautiful, it was said as Vatican ll had intended.....WOW what a shock to see the beauty and reverence! My mind was lifted to prayer even while keeping the littles under control. Unfortunalty it was in NY, Franciscans of the Immaculate if you want to look them up.
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ALmom
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About the question of receiving on the tongue - the church has specified that it is the option of the faithful - so if your dd wants to receive on the tongue, no one has a right to prevent her from doing so. We understand the difficulty as it does sometimes feel like you are being singled out. When we are doing what the church intends, we simply ignore the slights - unless directly approached by the pastor (not just an annoyed gesture - perhaps he had heartburn or is experienceing some sort of pain). We have been stopped after Mass (while people were still around and so it was somewhat public) to correct how we were receiving on the tongue - not holding the tongue out far enough, etc. The children are reverent, come up with folded hands and as far as we knew were doing things as instructed. It was a little frustrating as there are plenty of incorrect receiving on the hand (and no act of reverence) and no public correction in these cases that we are aware of (though perhaps we just weren't around when people were spoken to)- but we have simply tried to follow these instructions when we receive (do a better job of getting the tongue out, etc. according to father's instructions) and offer up our embarrassment. I felt especially badly that it was one of my dc (the vulnerable pre-teen) that was most specifically addressed. We continue to receive on the tongue - and also to genuflect before receiving.
With genuflecting before receiving, we were told directly that the bishop had given these instructions, we asked about Vatican documents, but while this was being clarified, we felt that we must obey and so for about a week, we bowed instead of genuflecting. Afterwards, the clarification came in that we could genuflect - evidently the bishop did not say what everyone thought he did and clarification was published in the bulletin. There is so much confusion coming from disobedience, ignoring rubrics, etc. Often the priests are also trying to obey and are getting confusing information as well.
In an environment where liturgical abuse is not uncommon, it is essential that you remain informed on these things. We have found that Adoremus has been invaluable to us in alerting us when Vatican documents are being misinterpreted (I don't have the expertise to figure this out). We simply obey the church as best we can. Obedience is so critical especially in our times.
Janet
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JennyMaine
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It is so challenging, isn't it? While I know perfectly well that we have the right to receive on the tongue, our current pastor at every Mass jerks his hand away after placing the host on a tongue and makes a very angry, scowling expression. This has been going on for a year, at every Mass - same couple of people receiving on the tongue. The pastor gives off the impression that he just hates giving Communion that way. Our former pastor (different parish) preferred we receive on the tongue and had no problems with people kneeling to receive, if so desired. But then if he was away and we had a fill-in priest - oh my. One dear friend had a child denied Communion in front of the whole church by a visiting priest - he refused to give her Communion on the tongue and yelled at her in front of the whole church to put out her hands to receive or keep walking. She was 12.
Thank you, Janet, for giving me much to think about.
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--JennyMaine, Mom to Catherine (17) and Sam (15) "The countenance is a reflection of the soul. You should always have a calm and serene countenance." -- Therese of Lisieux
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chicken lady
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My dh often relates a story concerning JPll. A nun was at one of his masses and refused communion on the tongue, before he finally gave her the host he looked her in the eyes and said "consider whom you are receiving".
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doris
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Just reviving an old thread to say that I found this interesting paragraph in 'Celebrating the Mass', a document published by the Catholic Bishops' Conference of England and Wales:
'Even though some in the assembly may not receive 'sacramental' Communion, all are united in some way by the Holy Spirit. The traditional idea of 'spiritual' Communion is an important one to remember and reaffirm. The invitation often given at Mass to those who may not receive sacramental Communion -- for example, children before their First Communion and adults who are not Catholics -- to receive a 'blessing' at the moment of Communion emphasises that a deep spiritual communion is possible even when we do not share together the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ.'
Interesting...
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Home educating in London, UK with dd (2000) ds (2002), dd (2004), ds (2008) and dd (2011).
Frabjous Days
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Tridentine Mass...
