| Author | |
Anne McD
Forum All-Star
Joined: Dec 21 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 499
|
| Posted: April 30 2007 at 7:20pm | IP Logged
|
 |
|
organiclilac wrote:
Part of her philosophy is that you have to discipline yourself first, and realize that you cannot control your child, but only help them to make good choices. It has been hard for me to rewire how I think - but we have the best "discipline days" when I follow the method, and the worst when I don't!
|
|
|
That is a very interesting point-- I'll have to look into her book. It really is so true-- I find myself trying to control my children, and I am not very disciplined myself. I really feel that I was not raised in the way that we are all trying to raise our kids. I was the youngest of seven, but by the time I came around, my mom was working, so I was watched by siblings or grandparents. I feel like instead of someone being with me day to day saying, okay, we're going to work on this habit/discipline with you, I was "managed." I'm still realizing so many bad habits that were formed growing up that I have to break. There are so many things from my past that I don't want to repeat. Incidentally, I was never spanked, but I probably feared my parents more than my kids do me.
I've read Parenting w/Grace a few times, but it just didn't sit right with me. I can't think of anything in particular at the moment, but the book as a whole did not say "us." He did make many good arguements, and the story that Doris related re: the Germans who were not spanked were more willing to help the Jews was facinating. It makes sense, the idea that you are teaching your children how to act, not just punishing them for not acting how you want them to at a given moment, and so these people weren't afraid of punishment, but were willing to do the right thing.
I guess this just needs more prayer on my part. 
__________________
Anne
Wife to Jon
Mommy to Alex 9
James 8
Katie 6
William 3 1/2
Benedict Joseph 1
and baby on the way! 10/14
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Philothea
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 15 2006
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 824
|
| Posted: April 30 2007 at 8:38pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
organiclilac wrote:
I was still not happy with all the time-outs, though, so when "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline" by Becky Bailey was suggested on a Catholic parenting list, I was very interested. It is by far the best approach I have found. Part of her philosophy is that you have to discipline yourself first, and realize that you cannot control your child, but only help them to make good choices. It has been hard for me to rewire how I think - but we have the best "discipline days" when I follow the method, and the worst when I don't!
(Bailey is not Catholic (that I know of) and a few of her comments come off as relativistic - but I think that overall, her approach fits easily into a Catholic worldview. She promotes a respect for the child that is very consistent with our faith.) |
|
|
ITA. The whole time I was reading that book, I was thinking "this sounds like the catechism." Very respectful of the dignity of each human and with a nice focus on self-control.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Dawnie
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 30 2005
Location: Kansas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 841
|
| Posted: May 01 2007 at 11:27am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Regarding the study about the behavior of the spanked Germans vs. non-spanked Germans...I think it's important to remember that correlation is not the same as causation. If I do a study on eye color and airline pilots and I find out that the majority of airline pilots have blue eyes, that does not mean that having blue eyes will cause someone to be an airline pilot.
There are a lot of different ways that spanking can be carried out in a home, and it doesn't sound like the study accounted for those differences. There is a big difference between a home like Shawna's where spanking is sometimes carried out for certain specific behaviors and then only after a clear warning and a home where spanking is done in the heat of the moment as the culmination of an adult temper tantrum. The study that Popcak cites in his book is interesting, but I bet there's a lot more to the issue than simply whether someone was spanked or not as a child.
In one parenting book I read, the author answers the question of whether spanking is okay or not with the statement "99% of spankings are adult temper tantrums." That may be true, but what about the 1% that aren't?
Anne...I could have written your post...I go back and forth, too, and am conflicted and confused because I'm trying to raise my dc differently than I was raised. I have a "sprited" child who is very difficult to discipline, and it is in disciplining her that I struggle the most w/ the spanking question.
Well, I could write a whole lot more...but I need to exercise some discipline myself and get off the darn computer!
Thank you for your honest thoughts, everyone. I know that all of us are trying to do our best for our children, and that what is best for one family may not be best for another.
Dawn
__________________
Mom to Mary Beth (99), Anna (02), Lucia (04), Clara (06), and Adelaide Victoria (2/28/09)
Visit my blog!Water Into Wine:Vino Per Tutto!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
doris
Forum All-Star
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1103
|
| Posted: May 01 2007 at 11:59am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Dawnie wrote:
Regarding the study about the behavior of the spanked Germans vs. non-spanked Germans...I think it's important to remember that correlation is not the same as causation. If I do a study on eye color and airline pilots and I find out that the majority of airline pilots have blue eyes, that does not mean that having blue eyes will cause someone to be an airline pilot.
There are a lot of different ways that spanking can be carried out in a home, and it doesn't sound like the study accounted for those differences. There is a big difference between a home like Shawna's where spanking is sometimes carried out for certain specific behaviors and then only after a clear warning and a home where spanking is done in the heat of the moment as the culmination of an adult temper tantrum. The study that Popcak cites in his book is interesting, but I bet there's a lot more to the issue than simply whether someone was spanked or not as a child.
|
|
|
Of course!
I've hunted down the reference. The research comes from a book called The Altruistic Personality by Samuel P. Oliner. I haven't read the book, nor examined the statistical basis for the claims; but I'd imagine that the findings do suggest causation (not that this can ever be definitively proven -- that's why the tobacco companies got away with it for so long).
Anyway, I don't want to take the thread down a blind alley, but suffice to say that the study, as summarised in the Popcak book, does indeed suggest that there's more to it than just corporal punishment. In particular, the parents of 'nonrescuers' focused particularly on blind obedience rather than explaining and reasoning.
Can you use corporal punishment in a way which respects the other person? It's a genuine question!
__________________
Home educating in London, UK with dd (2000) ds (2002), dd (2004), ds (2008) and dd (2011).
Frabjous Days
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Anne McD
Forum All-Star
Joined: Dec 21 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 499
|
| Posted: May 01 2007 at 1:21pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I just want to make a quick point and say THANK YOU to all of you who are contributing to this topic! Spanking is such a hot topic item, and it can be so easy to divide ourselves into camps and start leveling insults at one another! We really are so blessed to have this board-- bottom line (no pun intended!  ), we love love love our children, and want them to be good people who love God and follow Him b/c they love Him. None of us want to coerce our children into anything, but trying to find that balance, "how do I teach my child to behave properly", so that he/she will be more open to listening to God's loving word b/c they've listened to us lovingly guide them from the beginning . . . Nothing will work for everyone, but at least we can all glean bits of wisdom from one another. The fact that we are all handling this respectfully means a lot to me, b/c no one wants to be judged as a bad parent. Esp. me-- my ego is too fragile.
I've had two thoughts on this recently. My first was this-- my primary job as parent is to train my children to behave correctly. Not as we train a puppy, but to make a true disciple of Christ. If I change my way of thinking, shouldn't my day/priorities/way I go about my daily tasks reflect this? Instead of my just running about "getting things done," shouldn't I be involving the children in the ways that they can contribute so that they learn not only how to take care of a house, but take care of each other, teach them to work without grumbling (maybe I should learn that myself!), teach them patience through my example of my attitude with them? I know many moms on this board with more children with me could virtually smack me in the forehead now and say, "we've been telling you this for awhile now!", but I think I have to synthesize everything b/f it makes sense to me. 
My second thought is still more of a question-- tempering justice with mercy. God has this one down. But where does it work when training children? This brings me back to the whole "pick your battles" point. If we relent and bend the rules once with children, then they learn mom and dad's weak points. At the same time, I hate to think of them as the world's best and tiniest manipulators! This might just be a personal matter that is left to prayer on an individual basis? Sometimes I feel like my son throws a fit every time I say no, then when I give it a second thought, I could say yes, but then I'm reinforcing the fact that if he throws a fit, he gets what he wants. If I put my foot down and say, "I would have said yes, but you decided to fight me on it, so I'm standing by my no," it gets worse and we end up in what my dh calls vertical escalation! No one wins, no one is happy, and does anyone learn anything?
I'm sorry this got so long, but I think these are specific things I'm trying to figure out. Any thoughts??
__________________
Anne
Wife to Jon
Mommy to Alex 9
James 8
Katie 6
William 3 1/2
Benedict Joseph 1
and baby on the way! 10/14
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Dawnie
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 30 2005
Location: Kansas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 841
|
| Posted: May 02 2007 at 6:47pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
doris wrote:
| I've hunted down the reference. The research comes from a book called The Altruistic Personality by Samuel P. Oliner. I haven't read the book, nor examined the statistical basis for the claims; but I'd imagine that the findings do suggest causation (not that this can ever be definitively proven -- that's why the tobacco companies got away with it for so long). |
|
|
What makes you think that the findings of the study support causation? I'm not being argumentative...I'm really curious. I took ONE statistics class in college almost 9 years ago, so I'm no expert. Someone w/ more knowledge of statistics, please help me out here!
doris wrote:
| Anyway, I don't want to take the thread down a blind alley, but suffice to say that the study, as summarised in the Popcak book, does indeed suggest that there's more to it than just corporal punishment. In particular, the parents of 'nonrescuers' focused particularly on blind obedience rather than explaining and reasoning. |
|
|
Well, that makes sense...I remember reading that, too. So are you saying that it's not neccissarily spanking by itself, but an insistance on blind obediance that might have produced children who grew up to be 'nonrescuers'?
doris wrote:
| Can you use corporal punishment in a way which respects the other person? It's a genuine question! |
|
|
Yes, I think you can. I think the way that Shawna described spanking as it happens in her home is respectful of the person. I'm wondering how a swat on the behind, which is intended to cause momentary physical pain and discomfort (not injury--that would definately be abuse, i think!), different from the momentary emotional pain and discomfort caused by putting a child in time-out or taking privliges away? In both cases, parents are using some form of pain to provide some negative consequences for a misbehaving child.
I'm thinking out loud here w/ a very grabby baby on my lap! I'm certainly not trying tp attack anyone--I want to find some answers on this issue for myself.
I can't proofread this right now--please trust that my intent is charitable!
gotta get dinner ready for my rowdy kids!
Dawn
__________________
Mom to Mary Beth (99), Anna (02), Lucia (04), Clara (06), and Adelaide Victoria (2/28/09)
Visit my blog!Water Into Wine:Vino Per Tutto!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Bridget
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Michigan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2198
|
| Posted: May 02 2007 at 7:23pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Dawnie wrote:
I'm wondering how a swat on the behind, which is intended to cause momentary physical pain and discomfort (not injury--that would definately be abuse, i think!), different from the momentary emotional pain and discomfort caused by putting a child in time-out or taking privliges away? In both cases, parents are using some form of pain to provide some negative consequences for a misbehaving child.
|
|
|
At my house a swat seems to clear the air. We work on practicing what the child should have done, then its over. The child seems relieved that an outside force got him back in control. Time outs and room time seem to breed resentment. They have time to stew.
I do not think swatting/spanking is useful for a child over 6ish.
__________________
God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
Our Magnum Opus
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
florasita
Forum All-Star
Joined: April 06 2007
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 907
|
| Posted: May 03 2007 at 2:52pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
We don't call it time out it is acalm time . silence is golden type thing .I definately am a silence person and it is how I learn and hear God best in total silence .Our kids do not view or feel it negative in the least .It is just how it is prsented .A smack was a form of abuse in our home . A calm time is a time to be alone with God and remember how we love each other in our family . God does the same thing with me .I look to Him as my ultimate example is all how he dislines me is how I discipline our children  or try to the best of my ability
When the kids go to thier room they journal , read , listen to thier rain sticks . Calm things and thinking is one of them .
It is how we deal with our issues and our choice weather resentments are built . If we teach our children the proper ways to deal with anger there will be no room for resentments .
__________________
May I rise & rest with words of Gratitude on my Breath
May I have the Heart & Mind of a Child in my Depth
May I forever remember to be a Light
May Peace Love & Hope be My Sight
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Spanking ?
