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teachingmyown
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| Posted: April 29 2007 at 7:33pm | IP Logged
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Wow, what a great conversation! So glad I started it. 
There is so much I want to comment on, but pulling my thoughts together and actually getting them into a post is quite the challenge.
Anyway, Suzanne's comments about talking to my daughter about the "why's" of modesty really made me think. I do think in an effort to continue to shelter, I have not been as forthright about why modesty is so important. I need to find a tactful, gentle way to explain it so she grasps it.
I also like Betsy's comments about "transitioning" into a new view of modesty slowly as we make small changes.
My daughter and I decided on a tank suit with board shorts from LL Bean, perhaps with a rash guard as well. As much as I would prefer the modest suit, I understand the need to find an acceptable middle ground. As she develops more over the next couple of years, and we hopefully establish a good dialog on modesty and her responsibility for her appearance, we can move to an even more modest solution.
Thanks for all the input. I just love coming to y'all with my problems. 
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In Christ,
Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
Remembering Today
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Celeste
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| Posted: April 29 2007 at 10:20pm | IP Logged
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I meant to post this earlier, but my computer died! Had to get a new one (poor me ).
Pope John Paul (when he was "just" Karol Wojtyla) wrote on modesty in Love and Responsibility in Chapter III, subheading "The Metaphysics of Shame." Near the end of that section. (Page numbers refer to the 1981 Farrar, Straus, Giroux edition.)
Wojtyla points out that while dress is "one of the matters concerning which problems of modesty" frequently arises, it is "difficult for us to go into details or to discuss the nuances of fashion. . . ." Immodesty is "that which frankly contributes to the deliberate displacement of the true value of the person by s*xual values"--in other words, presenting yourself by your dress as a possible means of enjoyment, a thing to be used, rather than a possible "object of love" by reason of "personal value." "The application . . . depends upon the individual, the milieu, the society. . . " (pp. 189-190).
"While we are on the subject of dress and its relevance to the problem of modesty and immodesty it is worth drawing attention to the functional significance of differences in attire. There are certain objective situations in which even total nudity of the body is not immodest, since the proper function of nakedness in this context is not to provoke a reaction to the person as an object for enjoyment, and in just the same way the functions of particular forms of attire may vary. Thus, the body may be partially bared for physical labour, for bathing, or for a medical examination. If then we wish to pass a moral judgement on particular forms of dress we have to start from the particular functions which they serve. When a person uses such a form of dress in accordance with its objective function we cannot claim to see anything immodest in it, even if it involves partial nudity. Whereas the use of such a costume outside its proper context is immodest, and is inevitably felt to be so. For example, there is nothing immodest about the use of a bathing costume at a bathing place, but to wear it in the street or while out for a walk is contrary to the dictates of modesty" (pp. 191f, emphasis mine, for those who skim long posts like this one).
So a swimsuit needs to be judged as a swimsuit, not according to what's appropriate for a shopping excursion or dinner with your pastor. Within THAT context, then, the suit needs to be analyzed. Certain suits that aren't "weird" could still be considered modest if their intent is not flaunting the wearer's s*xuality. Too many suits clearly flaunt, but many retail outlets (Lands' End, Hanna Andersson, CWD, some athletic catalogs) have acceptable options.
Celeste
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teachingmom
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| Posted: April 30 2007 at 12:27am | IP Logged
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Amen, Celeste!
We have become a family of competitive swimmers. (OK, it's the girls, not dh or I.  ) We spend our entire summer at the pool. My girls typically wear Speedo, one-piece, swim team-type swim suits. Although we have modesty standards that are much more strict than those of most people for our clothing, I have no problem with normal one-piece or tummy-covering tankini swim suits at the pool or beach. As Celeste quotes above, the clothing needs to be taken in context.
I agree with Anne about the normal-yet-modest suits I see on holy Catholic women I know. If you read the modesty threads on this forum, you might get the impression that most really serious Catholic women wear the swimming dresses that cover everything from neck to elbow to knees. Some people feel a very strong calling to do just that, and I admire them for following their conscience in that. But I just thought I'd chime in to say that there are plenty of us who don't feel called to that for the same reasons outlined in the quote from Pope John Paul II above.
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~Irene (Mom to 6 girls, ages 7-19)
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mary theresa
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| Posted: April 30 2007 at 11:56am | IP Logged
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Celeste, that was a great post! I completely agree!
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Mary Theresa
mother to 3 little girls --March '06, Dec '07 and Jan '10
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: April 30 2007 at 1:41pm | IP Logged
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Thank you Celeste.. that's what I think of when getting suits for my children. My children are also on swim team (think I said that earlier) and so the functionality of it is such that the dress style suits just won't work. I do get them shorts so that they can slip those on when out of the pool.
and as far as having to strip for use the bathroom.
you can grab the edges of one leg and pull it across between your legs and not undress at all.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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Natalia
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| Posted: May 03 2007 at 9:09am | IP Logged
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I am going to tag my question to this thread because I don't have much time. We had the swimsuit issue come up and I realized that I have not really talked to my dd of the reasons why modesty is important. Do you have a recommendation for a book for her to read and that she and I can discuss? ( I know that modesty have been discussed a lot lately but I don't have the time to wade through those big threads to see if any resources were recommended-if you know please direct me to that thread)
Thanks,
Natalia
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Anne McD
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| Posted: May 03 2007 at 12:23pm | IP Logged
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Thank you so much for pointing us to the Holy Father's writings, Celeste! He is so sensible.
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Anne
Wife to Jon
Mommy to Alex 9
James 8
Katie 6
William 3 1/2
Benedict Joseph 1
and baby on the way! 10/14
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Celeste
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| Posted: May 03 2007 at 3:58pm | IP Logged
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Natalia,
Maybe you could start with the Catechism's entries on modesty (2521ff), since they describe modesty as a virtue encompassing more than just clothing.
Love and Responsibility ("Metaphysics of Shame") has some of the best information on modesty and chastity I've read. It's definitely not kid reading, but good background for Mom.
Not much, but I hope it's a start!
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Celeste
Mother of five. Daughters.
Perchik: Do you have children?
Tevye: I have five daughters.
P: Five?
T: Daughters.
P: Girls should learn, too. Girls are people!
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knowloveserve
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| Posted: May 03 2007 at 5:52pm | IP Logged
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Natalia: try "Secret Keeper" by Dannah Gresh. You can get it on www.omsoul.com
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Ellie
The Bleeding Pelican
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Swim suits, modesty, again
