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Teachin'Mine2
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| Posted: March 08 2010 at 9:12am | IP Logged
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I did the usual order - biology, chemistry them physics in high school. I can remember that when I got to chemistry I was confused about how all of this fit in with what I had learned in biology.
I've heard it mentioned that a better order might be physics, chemistry and then biology. Has anyone done this? What were the positives and negatives?
We're currently doing Apologia physical science. From what we've seen, we'd like to continue with this publisher as my daughter is enjoying the science, but that is subject to change.
For Physics - Saxon - they recommend that the student has completed at least the first half of their Advanced Math. That's a problem since we won't be beginning Adv. Math until next year, which is the year we would be doing physics. Is it enough to do these concurrently, or does the more advanced math show up at the beginning of the physics book and she'd be put on hold?
Is there any reason to do both Apologia physics and Saxon? Would doing Apologia first eliminate the problem of not having done enough math first. I should also say that as of now, we'd like to do two years of biology - regular biology followed by the human body text (Apologia). With this schedule, there really isn't room for two years of physics, unless I make one count for science, and the other for math.
Any help would be greatly appreciated! 
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Angel
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| Posted: March 08 2010 at 12:44pm | IP Logged
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Well, no experience here, but "Physics First" is one of the things we're talking about in this thread. Jen (Mackfam) provided some links about half way down.
Personally, though, I don't think you could do Saxon Physics first. I've heard it's actually like another math class... but I don't have any first hand experience.
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Angela
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Teachin'Mine2
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| Posted: March 08 2010 at 1:09pm | IP Logged
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Angel thank you for the link! It was in that thread that I heard the concept mentioned. 
I guess I'm wondering if anyone has done this. As everyone talking about it hasn't reached that point yet, I'm not able to get BTDT type of info.
I hear the concerns too about how it might be more of a physical science course rather than a full scale physics course. For us, we're doing physical science this year, and if we went to physics, I think we'd be inclined to go to Apologia Physics, and then follow that the next year with Saxon physics as she'll then have done 1/2 or all of Advanced Math.
I'm going to check out the Apologia description of physics to see if that clarifies anything.
Mackfam, I hope you don't mind my cross referencing your post from the other thread. As that one was about creating your own science curriculum from living books, I didn't want to go off on a tangent with my question about our particular situation.
Mackfam wrote:
"Another benefit according to those I've spoken with is that it allows Biology to come later, when a student is older and able to grasp/understand/question/investigate some of the cognitive concepts more readily. The idea of the Physics First program is that it is meant to be very hands-on and to engage and promote questions.
Physics First - this is a publication from the American Association of Physics Teachers. There's an interesting pdf at the bottom of the article to download that has some good nuts and bolts of how it would look.
Nobel Laureate says we should put physics first
Suddenly kids find physics a magnetic field to study - this article speaks to some of the results on AP testing in context of schools using the Physics First approach."
I really enjoyed your post, and agree that Biology might be better coming later. What I don't know is how colleges would look at this in terms of admission. Thinking, at this point anyway, that AP biology might be a good way to go, but would it be of any help admission wise if the test is taken at the end of the senior year? kwim? But I like doing chemistry before biology, or I could always flip those two. It's all confusing! 
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Angel
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| Posted: March 10 2010 at 9:26am | IP Logged
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I stumbled on an interesting thread at the Well-Trained Mind boards this morning:
My dd has decided she wants to be a physicist
It looks as if some people over there are doing "physics first", but with a conceptual physics textbook, then a math-based physics class later on.
My little ones are tearing apart the house now, so further searching is going to have to wait...
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Angela
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Teachin'Mine2
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| Posted: March 10 2010 at 11:32am | IP Logged
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I was over there this morning too Angel. Yes, I've read through that thread. But her daughter's situation is a bit different as I don't believe she has the math skills yet for the regular high school physics. For Saxon physics, my daughter is borderline - a year more math first would help - but for Apologia physics, I think she'd be okay math wise. We could always follow that up with Saxon physics as her math class in 10th or 11th. I'm just not sure if this is a better way to go or not. I know the ACT has science on it, so would it be harder to do well on that if she's not starting biology until 11th? I guess that's one of my concerns.
Was just wondering if anyone has done science in the above order, or if they can see any benefits or drawbacks to doing it this way.
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StephanieA
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| Posted: April 06 2010 at 7:29am | IP Logged
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I have graduated 3 boys who needed physics for college.
My second son did Conceptual Physics as a freshmen in high school and while a very good student, he retained too little (his words). He wish he would have waited until junior or senior year. By the time he began his heavy physics courses in college, he had forgotten so much. Plus he felt Conceptual physics was not detailed enough for an engineering student, later in high school. He did a little of Saxon Physics, but it was much more math based. He needed more conceptual based physics course, since he had taken Calculus in high school as a early college credit student.
THe local prep school does this sequence:
Conceptual Physics
Biology
Chemistry
Advanced Physics
But...my daughters cringe at this - as well as me 
Different schedules for the rest of us!
Blessings,
Stephanie
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Teachin'Mine2
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| Posted: April 06 2010 at 12:39pm | IP Logged
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Thank you Stephanie and Happy Easter!
It would help to know how to plan if I knew what my daughter will be studying in college, but as of now, we don't know. So I'm trying to make sure she has enough of a good foundation in most things so she won't be limited when she does get to college.
What I've been reading is that a lot of the high school biology texts start out with a lot of biochemistry. It's for that reason that some like to do chemistry before biology. We'll be using Apologia, which I don't think has heavy biochemistry, but I still like the idea of understanding things at a molecular level before the cellular and organism level.
I think physics would be a logical progression from physical science. I think it will build on what she's been learning this year moreso than biology would.
Thank you so much for sharing your experience.
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StephanieA
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| Posted: April 06 2010 at 4:22pm | IP Logged
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I think it all depends on how detailed the science course is....and how you wish to proceed.
The first three boys took a pretty detailed biology course, enough to CLEP out of it in college. This was only a slight problem for one son who is graduating this year (yeah!!) with a biochemistry degree. He wished he had taken the lower level biology for the purpose of the MCAT. He scored high enough that they gave him 2 classes of credit, but he could have used the rigor of the classroom (his words).
Saxon Physics is heavy into math. Conceptual Science has some math, but lots of concepts. I can't speak for Apologia.
My daughter will take music in college and wishes to CLEP both sciences (biology and chemistry). So we are proceeding with a physical science course coupled with an anatomy course this semester. Then she will take biology sophomore year and chemistry junior year, leaving senior year open to work harder on her music.
It is SO hard to cover all basis. But knowing your children is the best way to schedule science in high school, I think.
Stephanie
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ALmom
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| Posted: April 15 2010 at 7:19pm | IP Logged
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We tried physics first with my oldest. It was an unmitigated disaster - and I should have known better. She is not a science person - but I suspect trying to do the physics first really derailed her and has made her fear and avoid science for many years. (I think we were trying to uses STAA recommendations at the time and the text was Physics the Easy Way or something like that. Our daughter was fairly strong in math, but not advanced.
Now let me caveat that I am a horrible science teacher and she was my first - so all those things factored together and it wasn't just the physics. It also took me a long time to figure out the children's learning style. By the time I did - this one was already about out of high school.
The other thing I would say is that I took physics in high school - Algebra based and I really had a time readjusting my thinking to do calculus based physics in college.
I can see putting off Biology some - for maturity, etc. I also think that most high school sciences that I've seen throw far too much info and vocabulary without making sure the child really knows the concepts. I was one of those who could sail through math based physics courses simply because I am good at math and memorizing. Most of the time in class, the teacher was spending explaining the math. However, I haven't a clue about concepts.
I don't know if this works - but physics is a bit easier to grasp at the elementary and middle level - using real life things. We use a lot of homescience tools with physical science - take our time. Then move on to Chemistry. Biology we do either before or after - but we do a combination of Nature observation and anatomy first and then get into some of the other topics. I was intriqued by another post where a real science person suggested breaking Biology up.
I think it is better to cover less, and cover it well. Some of mine did not do physics in high school. My science minded folks will. I'm hoping their math will allow them to do calculus based - but in the meantime we continue to do lots of hands on physics that is more Algebra based in a more informal way.
Janet
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Teachin'Mine2
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| Posted: April 16 2010 at 3:53pm | IP Logged
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Stephanie and Janet, thank you so much for sharing your experiences!
I'm sure that by the end of high-school my daughter will have a better idea of what she'd like to major in, but by then it will be too late to change course.
I think CLEP or AP is a great idea, especially if she doesn't choose to major in math or science. Then it's covered and she can concentrate on other areas.
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: Has anyone done Physics first?
