Oh, Dearest Mother, Sweetest Virgin of Altagracia, our Patroness. You are our Advocate and to you we recommend our needs. You are our Teacher and like disciples we come to learn from the example of your holy life. You are our Mother, and like children, we come to offer you all of the love of our hearts. Receive, dearest Mother, our offerings and listen attentively to our supplications. Amen.



Active Topics || Favorites || Member List || Search || About Us || Help || Register || Login
Domestic Church
 4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Subject Topic: Scapular questions Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message << Prev Topic | Next Topic >>
Bookswithtea
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: July 07 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2621
Posted: Feb 14 2006 at 9:13am | IP Logged Quote Bookswithtea

OK, I'll admit it. When I first came into the church, this is the only sacramental that seemed to me to blur the line a bit between devotion and superstition (I have another convert friend who struggles with this one devotion too, for the same reason).

I've read the booklet, Garment of Grace. I've heard many people speak of this as though its so inspiring. I wasn't inspired. Am I missing something?

I am asking about the scapular because I am rereading The Apostolate of Holy Motherhood and this is one of the devotions mentioned in the book.

I have two questions, and I'd be so grateful for help from you all. So many of you have a deep understanding of the faith from long years of devotion and love of the Church.

First, can you help me to understand this devotion, not from the "you'll die in good graces" angle, but from how it is a sign of devotion/penance, etc?

And second, it seems like every time I know someone who wears it, it is always *seen* by hanging out of their shirts or dresses or whatever. I thought devotions like this were supposed to be a secret. Am I wrong? Perhaps this is just another sign that modesty is more conservative than we often think? Is it supposed to be entirely unseen?

Thank you all for tolerating my weird questions!

~Books
Back to Top View Bookswithtea's Profile Search for other posts by Bookswithtea
 
Helen
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: Dec 03 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2826
Posted: Feb 14 2006 at 9:42am | IP Logged Quote Helen

Dear Books,
The small scapular worn by faithful Catholics is just a miniature version of what Discalced Carmelites weare as part of their Religious habit. St. Therese of Lisieux, St. Teresa of Avila, and St. Benedicta of the Cross are all outstanding examples of Carmelite saints. None of these courageous and brilliant women could ever be considered 'superstitious'.
The Scapular is a very old devotion in the church. It traces its roots to the 12th century (I'm pretty sure) with St. Simon Stock.
St. Simon was a Carmelite. It wasn't a safe time to be a Carmelite. It seemed that when a carmelite went out on a journey, they would be attacked. Probably because they were so peace loving. Well, no one wanted to join the Carmelite order. St. Simon turned to prayer. "O help us, dear God, through the hands of your Mother. We who wear this Carmelite habit, are being killed." (paraphrase) Our Lady appeared and gave reassurance to St. Simon, "Don't worry, anyone who dies wearing the scapular of the Carmelite order will not suffer eternal fire."
Well, this certainly did give the monks hope. (The scapular was really the apron used during working times to protect the habit.)
When the word got out of this type of protection, the laity began asking for this type of protection. So, the protection spread to the laity. It wasn't practical to wear the full form of the scapular, so a miniature one developed.
It is assumed that if you wear the Scapular, you also want to participate in the fullness of the teachings of the Church, very much in the 'spirit' of fully professed Religious. That is why it is not superstition. It is not just by wearing the blessed cloth, it is also the promise to live a holy life and pray the Rosary. (The Rosary was used in place of praying the Divine Office)

The Carmelites greet eachother with the phrase:
Praised be Jesus Christ,
Now and forever

__________________
Ave Maria!
Mom to 5 girls and 3 boys
Mary Vitamin & Castle of the Immaculate
Back to Top View Helen's Profile Search for other posts by Helen Visit Helen's Homepage
 
Sarah
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: Aug 17 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1624
Posted: Feb 14 2006 at 10:55am | IP Logged Quote Sarah

Some people wear their brown scapulars on the outside. This is not considered wrong, as I understand it after talking to a good priest on the subject recently.

My scapular is often half in half out, sometimes with a baby sucking on it --okay, that's probably not a good idea! But you don't have to hide that devotion. A "private" Devotion means "by yourself" as opposed to "public"--in a group. It doesn't mean "secret."

As Helen explained well, the idea of a scapular is to wear a "habit" like a nun or other religious person would, but as a practical garment for lay people. Carmelites wear a scapular, too--its that huge fabric, almost cape-like thing that has a panel in the fron and in the back.

Can you die with your soul in mortal sin, wearing a scapular and expect salvation through it as a "good luck" charm? No.

The scapular is a sign that you have consecrated yourself to Mary's Immaculate Heart and that you are promising to live in a state of grace---upholding the teachings of the Church.

The discomfort in wearing it is supposed to be a little penance that you can offer up. It is a reminder that you need to live up to the life God has asked of you in your vocation.

You should be enrolled ny a priest and have your first scapular blessed. Then all other scapulars you get to replace it are automatically blessed. Bury or burn the worn out one.

It is recommended that it be made of wool-and brown. The scapular medal DOES NOT replace the devotion unless there is a very serious reason for substituting it. For example, you're allergic to wool (like a rash--regular itching doesn't count).

Its not a good luck charm and merely wearing it does NOT meant that you are in a state of grace.

Superstition in the Catholic Faith is strongly forbidden. There are many superstitions that have cropped up and mask themselves as devotions. Also, as for the "Apospolate of Holy Motherhood" -I'm NOT saying that that book is a hoax, but understand that you are not bound to follow visions and messages from others. They should ALWAYS lead you to communion with the Church and never take you away from the faith. Just because someone says the Blessed Mother is appearing doesn't mean you have to listen. There are many unapproved apparitions out there. God through His goodness has allowed Holy Mother Church through our good Popes to approve apparitions and they are safe to stick to-- if you feel confused. Please understand that I am not badmouthing Apostolate of H.M.,I've read it and did not find anything objectionable. . .I just wanted you to be careful.



__________________
Six boys ages 16, 14, 11, 7, 5, 2 and one girl age 9


Back to Top View Sarah's Profile Search for other posts by Sarah
 
Bookswithtea
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: July 07 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2621
Posted: Feb 14 2006 at 12:56pm | IP Logged Quote Bookswithtea

Helen, thank you so much for explaining how the Carmelites were being attacked. That is the piece of info. missing from the story. Now it makes so much more sense!

Sarah, thank you for helping me to understand about the private versus secret idea, and also about the discomfort attached to the scapular. That makes sense.   

I know the church doesn't encourage superstitions. Honest. I do think that some people misuse sacramentals though, and unless I really understand them myself, I'd rather not participate...especially with the voluntary ones like this.

OK, question number 2...what does this mean?

"The scapular is a sign that you have consecrated yourself to Mary's Immaculate Heart."

I know what the immaculate conception is, but I don't know why there is a focus on the "immaculate heart." BTW, the idea of the "sacred heart" was weird to me the first time I read it, too. lol Catholicism is an ancient faith, and sometimes its earthiness doesn't compute in a modern brain when you haven't grown up with it (but oh, the riches...I wouldn't go back to protestantism for all the world).

As far as the Apostolate book...I do know the church's teachings on private revelation (we don't have to accept any of it), and that none of this is officially approved by the Church at this point. I still don't know what I think about it, but I do think there are many many good practices and messages in it that just help to focus the reader on motherhood and its high calling. I like it for that.

Soooooooooo...what do you think about it?   

~Books
Back to Top View Bookswithtea's Profile Search for other posts by Bookswithtea
 
Sarah
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: Aug 17 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1624
Posted: Feb 14 2006 at 2:22pm | IP Logged Quote Sarah

Devotion

This seems to be an okay explanation.

I agree that if you think about it- organs and body parts as part of a devotion seems weird.

I once had a priest tell me that we don't worship or devote ourselves to body parts. Thus, we need to remember that they are symbols of something greater. As the link describes, the Immaculate Heart is a symbol that stands for the love of Jesus, and for Mary's interior life that we admire.


__________________
Six boys ages 16, 14, 11, 7, 5, 2 and one girl age 9


Back to Top View Sarah's Profile Search for other posts by Sarah
 
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
Posted: Feb 14 2006 at 2:28pm | IP Logged Quote JennGM

On the Brown Scapular, there was an interesting discussion Swimming with Scapulars thread.

As far as Apostolate, I haven't read it. There are a few private revelations I follow, but most of them have gone through some rigorous evaluation. Divine Mercy, Fatima, Lourdes...those on the top of my head. I'm reluctant to add on extra devotions because of a recent private revelation. IMHO, the revelations heap on extra piety and devotions that could distract you from actually living your vocation and using the Sacraments available to us everyday (I'm speaking speculatively, because I don't know what Apostolate calls for). We're wives and mothers, not religious in a monastery. If we do all extra rigors of piety, we have to make sure our motives and priorities.

I don't mean to say "don't do it", it's just something that I can't put my finger on. We have so much in the treasures of the Church, that it seems contradictory for some of these private revelations to seem to have the special knowledge or gnosis for the inside track to heaven. This probably doesn't make complete sense...I need a little nap! Still a bit stretched thin emotionally from last night's drama at the ER!

__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
Back to Top View JennGM's Profile Search for other posts by JennGM Visit JennGM's Homepage
 
Helen
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: Dec 03 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2826
Posted: Feb 14 2006 at 8:53pm | IP Logged Quote Helen

True Devotion to Maryby St. Louis de Montfort explains consecration to the Blessed Virgin Mary the best. St. Maximilian Kolbe didn't write much. But, he built upon St. Louis' Total Consecration, by making a vow of total consecration to the Immaculate.

Our Lady herself requested devotion to Her Immaculate Heart at Fatima. She asked for the 5 First Saturdays of reparation to sins against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

Books, thank you for your excellent questions.
Thank you Sarah for your edifying posts. Jenn, thank you for your research.

__________________
Ave Maria!
Mom to 5 girls and 3 boys
Mary Vitamin & Castle of the Immaculate
Back to Top View Helen's Profile Search for other posts by Helen Visit Helen's Homepage
 
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
Posted: Feb 15 2006 at 2:59pm | IP Logged Quote JennGM

Books,

I don't think your question about the Immaculate Heart was completely answered. I hope this isn't overkill, but I'm providing two quotations from some books to help you understand devotion to the Immaculate Heart. After reading, if more questions, ask away:

From Modern Catholic Dictionary by Father John Hardon, S.J.
IMMACULATE HEART. The physical heart of the Blessed Virgin Mary as a sign an symbol of her compassion and sinlessness, and the object of devotion by the faithful. Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary gained international prominence through the Fatima apparitions in 1917, and their subsequent approval by the Holy See. A widely used prayer capsulizing this devotion reads:

"Virgin of Fatima, Mother of mercy, Queen of heaven and earth, refuge of sinners, we consecrate ourselves to your Immaculate Heart. To you we consecrate our hearts, our souls, our families, and all we have.

"And in order that this consecration may be truly effective and lasting, we renew today the promises of our Baptism and Confirmation; and we undertake to live as good Christians—faithful to God, the Church and the Holy Father. We desire to pray the Rosary, partake in the Holy Eucharist, attach special importance to the first Saturday of the month and work for the conversion of sinners.

"Furthermore we promise, O most holy Virgin, that we will zealously spread devotion to you, so that through our consecration to your Immaculate Heart and through your own intercession the coming of the Kingdom of Christ in the world may be hastened. Amen."

From A Dictionary of Mary compiled by Donald Attwater, 1956.

Heart of Mary, The Immaculate: “Come, let us worship Jesus reigning in Mary’s heart, He who is our life and our love.” In those words St. John Eudes (d. 1680), who did so much to forward devotion to the Heart of Mary, expressed its final aspect. Whereas devotion to the Heart of Jesus is specially directed to that heart as overflowing for mankind, and answers love with love, the Heart of Mary, as Father John Bainvel has pointed out, attracts us in the first place by her love for Jesus and for God: men's minds go easily beyond her heart of flesh to the love and virtues that it symbolizes, and they seek to follow her example. Like all devotions, this one has several aspects, and different people at different times have developed and emphasized now this, now that: to try to imitate the Heart of Mary, to praise it, to associate oneself with it, to make reparation for men’s indifference to its love for them, but none of these things to the exclusion of the others. More and more has the Heart of Mary been seen as a pattern of goodness—“most pure,” “more holy,” “Immaculate”—especially in its aspect of merciful concern for “poor sinners” and of love for all mankind. There are two passages in the Holy Scriptures that are specially relevant for this devotion: when Mary stood at the foot of the cross and her heart suffered a mother’s anguish at the sufferings of her Son (cf., Luke 2:35); and when we are told that “Mary kept all these words, pondering them in her heart” (Luke 2:19; cf., 2:51)—a precious reminder of that quietness and thoughtfulness that is so necessary if religion is to grow and bear fruit in human hearts. –Every good thing has its dangers, and a danger in this devotion is to allow it to weaken into sentimentality. To quote the words of Father William C. Most: "That is a real danger. Sentimentality is only a caricature of real warmth. But we do insist that this devotion to the Hearts of Jesus and Mary should be marked by a genuine, a solid warmth, not necessarily emotion” (Mary in Our Life, 1954).

Adumbrations of this devotion can be found in some early. Commentaries on the Song of Songs, and it was adopted privately by St. Melchtildis (d. 1298) and St. Gertrude (d. 1302); but its "father, teacher and apostle" was, as St. Pius X declared, St. John Eudes during the seventeenth century in France. It is only natural that it should be encouraged by the spread of devotion to the Heart of Jesus, after the death of St. Margaret Mary (1690), and eventually an image of Mary's heart was incorporated in the Miraculous Medal. A Confraternity of the Heart of Mary for the Conversion of Sinners was founded at the church of our Lady of Victories in Paris in 1836, devotion increased after the definition of the Immaculate Conception in 1854, and in 1877 its scapular was instituted. When the events at Fatima were made widely public, devotion received further impetus, and following many petitions, including one from Canada, in 1942 Pope Pius XII consecrated the whole world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. On that occasion the Pope referred to the analogy with the consecration of mankind to the Sacred Heart of Jesus by Leo XIII in 1899. The analogy between the two devotions is obvious, and they have latterly grown side by side; by their fundamental difference must not be overlooked: Christ is true God and true man, wholly to be worshiped with divine worship; but Mary is wholly human, and the devotion to her heart is metaphorical. “However, in each case the ‘heart’ is meant to express the very selfhood, so to say, of Him, or her, whom we are contemplating and with whom we seek so far as possible to unite ourselves” (Father C. C. Martindale).


__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
Back to Top View JennGM's Profile Search for other posts by JennGM Visit JennGM's Homepage
 
Bookswithtea
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: July 07 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2621
Posted: Feb 16 2006 at 6:27am | IP Logged Quote Bookswithtea

Thanks, Jenn. Its a lot to think about. Some of it I still don't understand, but I guess that will come with time.

I really appreciate you taking the time to post quotes for me.

Blessings,

~Books
Back to Top View Bookswithtea's Profile Search for other posts by Bookswithtea
 
Elizabeth
Founder
Founder

Real Learning

Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
Posted: Feb 16 2006 at 8:23am | IP Logged Quote Elizabeth

Kristina,
I'm going to move your post and start a new thread so people know that you've opened athis discussion.

__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
Back to Top View Elizabeth's Profile Search for other posts by Elizabeth
 

If you wish to post a reply to this topic you must first login
If you are not already registered you must first register

  [Add this topic to My Favorites] Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Hosting and Support provided by theNetSmith.com