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kincaidknight
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Posted: July 01 2007 at 12:36pm | IP Logged Quote kincaidknight

Cay,

I just purchased Catholic Mosaic, and I'm so excited to get started with it. However, I've already hit a stumbling block due to my ignorance of Scriptures and apocrypha, and I'm hoping you can help by providing a context . . .

I started checking out some of the booklist choices from my local library. I checked out the two you recommend by Marianna Mayer, "Remembering the Prophets of Sacred Scripture" and "The Twelve Apostles." These books have beautiful artwork, and I've always enjoyed Mayer's picture books.

However, I'm concerned that Mayer draws heavily from the apocrypha and gnostic gospels to write these books. She weaves together the Bible with all kinds of legends about Jesus, Mary, the Apostles . . .

I'm a Catholic convert and still navigating my way. I'd really like to learn your reasoning for choosing Mayer's texts and how you perceive the scholarly sources she uses for these books. My husband immediately said he didn't want me introducing these books, filled with "heresy," to our children. How can I continue this dialogue with him? Help, please!

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Posted: July 01 2007 at 12:46pm | IP Logged Quote Kathryn UK

Kristin, I don't know the books so can't comment on what she includes from where, but the "Apocrypha" is fully part of the Bible used by the Catholic Church. These books are as much part of the Canon of Sacred Scripture as any others, and nothing that is sourced from these can be in any way heretical. They were excluded from the Bible and made apocryphal by the Protestants at the Reformation.

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Posted: July 01 2007 at 12:52pm | IP Logged Quote kincaidknight

Kathryn,

I should have clarified that Mayer herself calls these sources "apocryphal," but if you look at her sources and author's notes, you find that she's drawing from the Gospel of Thomas, the Infancy of Thomas, etc. In a book that is not in Catholic Mosaic, "Young Mary of Nazareth," Mayer says she uses her imagination to fill in the childhood of Mary. She sees Mary as like the great pagan goddesses, and as a replacement for the "darker" images of Lilith and Eve. Mayer relies heavily on the gnostics as she blends them with the Gospels. So, for her, what she is calling "apocryphal" for the rest of us would mean "gnostic."

So, I'm concerned. I know the "Young Mary of Nazareth" book isn't in Catholic Mosaic, but she still uses similar sources for the recommended books on the booklist. My question is the same as my husband's, then: how can we trust an author who is easily won over by the gnostics and thinks it's perfectly fine to mingle gnostic thoughts with canonial Gospels? Doesn't this tain her trustworthiness as an author of Catholic picture books?

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Posted: July 01 2007 at 5:43pm | IP Logged Quote JennGM

kincaidknight wrote:
So, I'm concerned. I know the "Young Mary of Nazareth" book isn't in Catholic Mosaic, but she still uses similar sources for the recommended books on the booklist. My question is the same as my husband's, then: how can we trust an author who is easily won over by the gnostics and thinks it's perfectly fine to mingle gnostic thoughts with canonial Gospels? Doesn't this tain her trustworthiness as an author of Catholic picture books?

Kristin


I know Cay decided and evaluated each book individually, not by author.

I don't believe "gnostic gospels" is quite right. I do think they are called the apochryphal gospels, but not part of the Apocrypha that Kathryn mentioned. These were different gospels that were not used in the Canon. They had some elements of truth, but the Church decided they weren't inspired by the Holy Spirit, so they didn't become the Gospel. But they have been used for centuries, even by Church Fathers.

Gnosticism was a condemned heresy, and those gospels written by the gnostics were definitely condemned. Apocryphal gospels do not have the same status.

Marianna Mayer uses both tradition and some of these to fill in the blanks in some areas that haven't been taught officially. One perfect example is the status of St. Joseph. No one knows if he was young, a widow, old, when he died. It's been a long tradition that he was an elderly widower...this was to preserve the Blessed Virgin Mary's virginity.

But the Church has no official teaching on the private life of St. Joseph and the Holy Family...and it is not wrong to surmise and put some "pieces" together that is not against Faith.

I love "Young Mary of Nazareth" but I admit I skip over parts that I don't personally adhere. When he gets older I'll explain that this is a story.

We had a similiar discussion with Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ", where he took things from Anna Catherine Emerich and City of God...private revelation.

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Posted: July 03 2007 at 1:07pm | IP Logged Quote margot helene

kincaidknight wrote:
Doesn't this tain her trustworthiness as an author of Catholic picture books?


Hi Kristin,
Cay is about to go out of town and I just got back in town and got my Internet back up after a lightning hit. We didn't mean to ignore this question!

My first reaction is to say that there are several books in the Mosaic that are not by Catholic authors (I asumed Mayer was not Catholic - is that right?). But they belong in a "Catholic" Mosaic because they reflect some truth or beauty a la St. Paul's quote in the Introduction of Catholic Mosaic. They invite discussion and bring the reader to a deeper level of thoughtfulness. (For instance, the Giving Tree is not a Catholic story per se, but the interpretation of it recommended in Catholic Mosaic brings it into Catholic thought.) I do not think there is "heresy" in those books. My husband and I talk about this all the time. We know some people who only let their children read saint books and think other literature will taint their children. We believe the opposite is true, that the world of literature further broadens our children's hearts for Catholicism. This certainly has limits, but for good literature it is true. What is good and beautiful leads to truth.

This may not be a sufficient answer for you. I'm not sure if Mayer has the qualifications to be a "Catholic book author" but her books do fit qualities we were looking for in a "mosaic" book. Not every book in the Mosaic resonates with every reader in the same way, or the way it resonated with us.

We highly recommend prereading the titles so you are comfortable with them. Please keep in mind that parents have the ultimate right to protect and guide their children and should feel free to not have any book they are concerned about in the home. Choose some other books for those feast days. It is only The Twelve Apostles by Mayer that is featured and ironically (or not) it is next to impossible to find.

I hope this helps you get a little of our perspective, hastily done, so I may want to refine it later. But please do ask more questions if you like!
In Christ,
Margot
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Posted: July 11 2007 at 9:48am | IP Logged Quote Cay Gibson

Kristin,
did Jenn and Margot's explanation help you?

I couldn't have explained it better myself.

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Posted: July 11 2007 at 10:14am | IP Logged Quote Cay Gibson

I wanted to briefly address the "gnostic" concern.

I'm no expert on "gnosticism" and really have just begun even reading definitions about it because of this new person who has entered our immediate family circle.

We have a dear Catholic friend who is fixing to marry a girl who describes herself as "gnostic". She has agreed to marry in the Catholic church and raise the children Catholic. She makes the sign of the cross at meal time. She buys pictures of Christ and wall hangings with the name God/Christ upon them to adorn the walls of her home. Turns out she was not taken to church or raised in any religion as a child. So she searches...

Seems like young people are beginning to use "gnosticism" as an umbrella to cover all their individual and very personal beliefs about God and religion at large. I really think they lead a blind faith. Perhaps Mayer follows this blind faith. Hopefully, Catholic Mosaic and other resources and this group can redirect them to our wonderful faith and the truth that lies within it.

Your children are in good hands as you and your husband can explain to them and lead them in faith and knowledge. That's far more than a lot of children have today.

I'm sticky about the part where you say Mayer uses her imagination to fill in the childhood of Mary. I'm a big advocate for use of the imagination because, really, so much of Mary's childhood and even Jesus' life was "hidden". I think more children need to use their imagination to reflect on the lives of Mary and Jesus. It would direct them towards holy thoughts and time well spent.

I'm sure this post shows my ignorance of all things "gnostic" but I truly believe God can take all things and make them good and holy. If there is any concern over a book confusing our children or proving to contradict our beliefs, we can lay it aside...or just look at the artwork?

Thank you for bringing your concern to all of us, Kristin. It helps to talk, share, and attempt to understand each author and their work.

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Posted: July 11 2007 at 4:18pm | IP Logged Quote kincaidknight

Thank you, everyone, for your responses to my query. After looking through Mayer's books and paying attention to her author's notes about sources, praying about this, talking to my husband, etc., I've decided not to use Mayer's books with Catholic Mosaic. I still like the Catholic Mosaic program, but I just can't use books that draw on the Gospel of Thomas for resources. The Gospel of Thomas has been used by so many in the Church and outside of it to fuel the Da Vinci Code, the Jesus Seminar, and other nonsense.

The Infancy of Thomas narrative shows a Jesus that is frankly a little imp. He goes around causing problems and then cures people and performs miracles, often to cover up his misdeeds. Since we teach in the Church that the Wedding of Cana was Jesus' first miracle and had particular importance at the beginning of his public ministry, I find these gnostic stories about Jesus to undermine what we know to be True.

I'm all for using the imagination to fill in the hidden lives of Mary, Joseph, and Jesus, but I think I'll leave that to my children to meditate on instead of reading books about imagined events in Jesus' lives that are contrary to our faith. These kinds of impressions will be deep for young children and difficult to remove.

I love Catholic Mosaic because it uses pictures books, which is so helpful in creating beautiful images of the faith for our children. I am now cautious about the picture books recommended because of the lasting impression picture books leave and the strange resources used by Mayers for her religious books. Her authorship, in my mind, is tainted by her strange author's notes about Mary coming to replace Eve AND Lilith and how she's like the pagan goddesses. I just don't trust her "imaginative" interpretations now that I know her background and resources.

But, that's what I love about homeschooling - - - each parent can make his or her own choice about what it best for the children and their religious formation.

Thank you for your responses! It really helped me work through my discomfort and articulate my position better.

I feel more secure in my decision not to use Mayer's books but to use Catholic Mosaic overall!

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Posted: July 11 2007 at 4:42pm | IP Logged Quote JennGM

I just want to clarify for others, Cay did not use "Young Mary of Nazareth" in Catholic Mosaic, and that is the book that draws from the Gospel of Thomas. The only book by Marianna Mayer recommended in Catholic Mosaic is, "The Twelve Apostles".

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Posted: July 11 2007 at 4:46pm | IP Logged Quote kincaidknight

Yes - that should be reiterated.

The Twelve Apostles by Marianna Mayer only draws on the Gospel of Thomas for the information on the apostle Thomas' page. She doesn't use it as a resource for the other apostles.

She uses the Infancy of Thomas narrative for her other religious books, ones not in Cathlic Mosaic.

I think moms should be aware that the author is obviously wooed by these gnostic texts, though, and she has a feminist bent in terms of religion. We should tuck that away in the backs of our minds as we use her books in our homes and schools.

Thanks for pushing for this clarification. I hope I was not misleading. She only uses the Gospel of Thomas in her account of Thomas in that particular book, The Twelve Apostles.

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Posted: July 11 2007 at 4:55pm | IP Logged Quote JennGM

kincaidknight wrote:
I still like the Catholic Mosaic program, but I just can't use books that draw on the Gospel of Thomas for resources. The Gospel of Thomas has been used by so many in the Church and outside of it to fuel the Da Vinci Code, the Jesus Seminar, and other nonsense.


I just wanted to put my two cents that just because others have used this resource negatively, doesn't necessarily make the source guilty by association.

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Posted: July 11 2007 at 5:07pm | IP Logged Quote kincaidknight

No, but I think we have to wonder why people who don't like the Catholic Church have used these texts to create such warped versions of the Church in Da Vinci Code, Stigmata, etc. These are people who want to emphasize a historical Jesus, and the Gospel of Thomas undermines Jesus' divinity, his resurrection, and the virgin birth. Why would so many people who want to undermine the Church latch onto the Gospel of Thomas? There must be something there that is attractive to their feminist agendas and their wanting to make Jesus just a wise teacher and not our savior. . . .   

We have to be cautious with a picture book about religion written by someone who uses texts that fall outside of our canon and are used by those who despise the Church. In my opinion, her religious perspective is tainted, and I'd prefer to introduce religious texts that use solid resources that build up our faith.

I'm not trying to be extremist, but I have to say that I'm a bit concerned that gnosticism seems to be taken so lightly here on this forum.
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Posted: July 11 2007 at 6:30pm | IP Logged Quote Mare

kincaidknight wrote:
I'm not trying to be extremist, but I have to say that I'm a bit concerned that gnosticism seems to be taken so lightly here on this forum.


Kristin,

I'm a bit confused by this comment. Perhaps it is b/c I'm a cradle Catholic. Could you explain what you mean? I don't see how the comments on this thread would lead you to make such a sweeping generalization about this forum.



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Posted: July 11 2007 at 9:28pm | IP Logged Quote Elizabeth

Mare wrote:
kincaidknight wrote:
I'm not trying to be extremist, but I have to say that I'm a bit concerned that gnosticism seems to be taken so lightly here on this forum.


Kristin,

I'm a bit confused by this comment. Perhaps it is b/c I'm a cradle Catholic. Could you explain what you mean?



I'm confused as well. I can't even recall ever discussing gnosticism on this forum before this thread. (I haven't run a search. It's late and I'm tired.) And, besides Mare, who wrote to say she was confused, only four people have contributed to this thread. One of them was the author of the book and one of them was its publisher.That's a pretty remarkable personal response in the world of publishing! Each of the people who responded did so with care and with interest. None of them took your concern lightly. Instead, they took the time to address your concern. I don't see how the comments on this thread would lead you to make such a sweeping generalization about this forum.

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Posted: July 11 2007 at 10:23pm | IP Logged Quote kincaidknight

Wow - I'm the one who is really confused. I wasn't trying to make a generalization about the entire forum.

Being a convert to the faith, in any faith formation I've had as a Catholic, I have only learned about the dangers of gnosticism and mixing it in with what our Church officially teaches. So, that's where my confusion comes in. I was trying to navigate my way through what is really "apocrypha" and what is "gnostic" and how much of that had seeped into the Mayers book on the Catholic Mosaic. I was concerned about how we should deal with books that use resources that seem questionable.

When I first placed the question, I was quite ignorant about these gnostic gospels and I immediately poked around to learn more because I was concerned about some of the content in an author's books. That's it. I posted my question wondering if others shared the concern about the author.

When I say that I think gnosticism is taken "lightly" - I meant on this thread - and I'm referring to the opinions in defense of gnosticism as relatively harmless or as not necessarily a contradiction to our faith. This term is thrown around like it's just a form of spiritualism compatible with Catholicism, but I'm wondering how that's the case. I'm just questioning. Just questioning.

I know that those who answered took time and care and were quite polite in their responses.

I'll have to take my questioning elsewhere, as I can see that I've somehow offended this group quite unintentionally and unknowingly.

At this point, a priest would probably best answer my questions about sources like this because of the history and theology involved. I don't feel like the posts thus far have addressed my concerns about gnosticism and gnostic-influenced texts.

Thank you for your time. Peace be with you.
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Posted: July 11 2007 at 10:56pm | IP Logged Quote Angie Mc

Hi Kristin,

Welcome to 4Real and thanks for posting your questions and thoughts about this serious and complicated topic. It can be difficult to jump into a well-established message board, especially with a challenging topic, as a new member. We have this topic that might help to reassure you about the atmosphere we strive to provide on this board.

Not offended at all...and Love,    

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Posted: July 12 2007 at 7:28am | IP Logged Quote margot helene

Hi Kristin,
I hope you're still with us! I don't want you to think by our responses that we take the gnostics lightly. I think we (I) are wondering just how much it affects the particular books we are talking about, and continuing to talk out loud about our wondering. I think you have learned a lot from your poking around into it and it has given you what you need as a parent to make a decision.

I think that possibly your statement that we on the forum take the gnostics lightly ruffled a few feathers since it seemed to question the orthodoxy of the members. It is so hard to tell tone in written messages. (I'm talking gently and with love now.) We (you included) are all Catholics, sincerely seeking what is true, beautiful, and good for our children. Hope you'll stick with us as we make our way through it.

Since The Twelve Apostles was so hard for people to find, it's quite possible that not many people have used it or have it in hand to check the sources, so it may be that not many more people will be able to contribute to the conversation. But hopefully others may have some perspective to add.
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Posted: July 12 2007 at 9:05am | IP Logged Quote JennGM

Kristin,

I wanted to address a few things. When I read your concerns about Marianna Mayer, I had to go back to the books, because I kept thinking "How did I miss that?" After I read The Twelve Apostles I bought Young Mary of Nazareth and Young Jesus of Nazareth because I loved the style of her books so much (use of masterpiece art to illustrate the story.)

kincaidknight wrote:
She sees Mary as like the great pagan goddesses, and as a replacement for the "darker" images of Lilith and Eve.


AND

kincaidknight wrote:
Her authorship, in my mind, is tainted by her strange author's notes about Mary coming to replace Eve AND Lilith and how she's like the pagan goddesses. I just don't trust her "imaginative" interpretations now that I know her background and resources.


I read over "A Note About This Book" again and didn't see the same goddess connection. I don't feel comfortable making general negative statements about the author when it doesn't seem there. Here's the the Introduction:

This portrait of the Virgin Mary's girlhood is a very personal interpretation. In part, the details of Mary's birth and childhood are based on the scant material documented in the Gospels according to James, Luke, and Matthew. Further material, such as the story of the "waters of conviction," can be found in the writings of the early saints and mystics. To more fully illustrate Mary's character, certain incidents were drawn from my imagination as well as from my vivid memories of the Apocryphal tales passed on by the nuns of Saint Joseph in the convent school where my early education took place. Mary's relationship with her mother and the priest Zaccharia, her healing of the bird and the sick girl, as well as her good works at the Temple--all emphasize Mary's courage. Indeed, it was Mary's strength of character as much as her goodness that caused her to choose to do the will of God.

Most revered of all saints, perhaps rivaling even Christ as a focus of personal devotion, the Blessed Virgin embodies the very essence of powerful pagan Great mother goddesses that went before her. Her presence in the the Roman Catholic Church then and now has elevated womanhood to the level of the sacred, replacing darker examples, such as Lilith and Eve, with a woman heretofore unparalleled in biblical scripture.


While Mayer doesn't put Mary on the plane of Mother of God as the Church teaches, she does elevate her higher than any other woman in literature or history. I think she implies that Mary replaces and surpasses all former pagan goddesses, and she is elevated to "sacred". In studying history one can see a pattern in other ancient civilizations of a strong pagan goddesses, with a strong motherly character, almost a type or prefigurement as it were, of Mary. But Mary replaces all these...Mayer doesn't say that's she's another one. And her story of Mary isn't an original compilation of her young life. Mayer isn't being "imaginative" in her own mind. Her sources are from the traditional mystical writings and traditional apocryphal literature that was not condemned (more on that further below).

Another point I would like to discuss is of sources, particularly gnostic sources. I had to do a little research, because this was the first time I had heard negative implications on the apocryphal gospels. While they are not part of the canon of the Bible, I've always heard that they have some elements which have made up "pious tradition." I know with the Da Vinci Code the gnostic gospels have been brought to the forefront, and are seeing an upsurge of interest. But I found that the "Gospel of Thomas" is actually more than one text. There is a gnostic version, which was condemned, but these sources say there other versions (such as the Infancy Narratives). And while these stories may be insipid, they are harmless, containing nothing contradictory to the Faith. I think that is the main problem, that the use of apocrypha includes a variety of sources, but there are different categories of these texts. They all fit in the category of "apocryphal" but not all are gnostic.

There are some elements in the older apocryphal literature, not the condemned gnostic writings, that have been held piously as true, such as the parents of Mary, Joachim and Anne, and the birthday of Mary. The universal calendar even reflects these piously held beliefs. And many of the lives and martyrdoms of the apostles after the Ascension are preserved in these texts, and piously believed. Remember that when the Church made the decision on what books the Bible would contain, their criteria was to choose only those texts that were divinely inspired. The other ones were ruled out because there were elements that could not be held up as true or inspired. BUT also remember that there might be some elements that were true. None of these that were ruled out have to be believed in Faith...I'm just making the point that not all are contradictory in Faith.

Here are some links that can help clarify the differences:

Catholic Encyclopedia, Apocrypha Search for Thomas to read the difference.

Catholic Encyclopedia, Gnosticism

What do we know about Mary's life from apocryphal sources?

Q:What are the aspects of Mary’s person and life, which are related by the various apocryphal writings?

Father Most Apocrypha, listed by titles

Definition of Apocrypha from Father Hardon

What do the apocryphal gospels say? Shows the difference between types....including gnostics.

The Gnostic Gospels

I do want to mention that Young Mary of Nazareth does NOT use the Gospel of Thomas of any form for a source because no material on the early life of Mary is found there. This list gives the sources for her early life. Her bibliography of sources is solid, all solid Catholic sources except one. And she collaborated with the head of the The Mary Page.

Gnosticism is serious, and was a condemned heresy in the early Church. At various times of the church the term "gnosticism" has arisen again (including the present), not necessarily in the same context as the heresy, but still dangerous. Christ founded the Church to give us our path of salvation. All the teachings and Truths are either in Scripture, Sacred Tradition, or the Magisterial teaching of the Church. At times it's been hard to define what gnosticism is, as it takes different forms, and the followers are usually secretive about their beliefs. But I assure you, none of us here take the matter lightly.

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Posted: July 12 2007 at 9:41am | IP Logged Quote Helen

Jenn - this is an amazing explanation. Thank you.

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Posted: July 12 2007 at 10:30am | IP Logged Quote Cay Gibson

Kristin,
I feel the need to apologize if "I" sounded flippant in my response about gnosticism. I didn't mean it to be and I don't want the whole forum labeled as such due to a comment I might have unintentially made.

I simply haven't researched it enough to be properly educated about it. Jenn has helped all of us to a higher level of understanding. That's one thing I love about hearing everyone's questions and concerns. I really think this conversation has born much fruit.

I have read over my post and still don't see that it was making a light case of gnostism. I was only sharing my recent exposure to it and how I believe many of today's young people are embracing it without fully understanding it. I'm not saying it's right or should be taken lightly at all and I'm not saying we should allow it within our homes.


Like Jenn, Mayer's book on the apostles captived me. I loved the artwork Mayer used in the book and it was the only book I found that depicted all 12 of the apostles along with beautiful artwork with which to expose our children to...some of it they would never see (or notice) otherwise.

I do not have the book on Mary but will check it out as soon as I am able.

Let me share an excerpt from the "Introduction" of "Catholic Mosaic" as a reminder of how I examine and select the books therein:

(Found under "Are these all Catholic books?")

"We need to teach our children to have an objective eye and, as the late JPII showed us so wonderfully well by his example, to see the truths of their faith in the world around them. Let the Holy Spirit guide you in your discussions with your child, praying that the things we dwell upon lead us to heaven.

"If you have any concerns about one of the books, set aside 15 minutes to review the book before sharing it with your child."

****

Something I read while on retreat once was that reading can be (and is) a form of prayer. This delighted me beyond measure because reading is something I do as naturally as breathing. To be able to read these books any time of day and count them as "prayertime" with my children is a blessing in my household.

If you have any questions about a certain book, set aside those 15 minutes and pray over the book. If the book does not move you...if you can find something objectionable...if you find a better book on the subject to read to your children...then you will have taken your role/your calling as parent and mentor of your child seriously and your whole family will be blessed.

I think we have all learned alot from this discussion and I want to thank everyone for contributing (especially Jenn who spent a good deal of time doing all the research and linkage for us to peruse ). I think God has allowed us to approach this subject with grace, clarity, and truth to understand His teachings and His church better as well as the outside powers that can lead us and our children astray.

My prayers today are that it all glorifies His holy name.

Read on, dear members. Read on.

__________________
Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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