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Mom21
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| Posted: June 13 2011 at 12:21pm | IP Logged
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I am a newbie to homeschooling, having started this past January with my son, who in the fall will be in 5th grade. He spent from PreK to mid-4th grade at a Catholic school. We made the decision to homeschool him after many frustrating years, both academically and socially. Sadly, the focus of his prior school was SPORTS, not Jesus and the faith.
So here we are today! While we've had some ups and downs, homeschooling was a very good decision.
So here's my first question. From what I've read, is Kolbe the only accredited "school" that allows substitutions? Do Seton and MODG not allow substitutions? We started last year with Saxon 54 Math and neither of us liked it. I'd really like to go with Teaching Textbooks but notice that Seton and MODG are strictly Saxon.
Thanks for any insight!
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kristinannie
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| Posted: June 13 2011 at 1:00pm | IP Logged
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I know that you can make some substitutions with other programs, but it can be a lot harder to do. Kolbe is very easy to work with and truly believes that parents are the first teachers of their kids. You won't get the lesson plans for Teaching Textbooks, but those probably come with their own lesson plans anyway. I am planning on using Kolbe for 1st (in a year) through high school because I will definitely be substituting a lot (science, math and history). I like the fact that I can have a transcript, especially for high school. I would call or email them with your questions. They are very willing to help.
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John Paul 8.5
Meredith Rose 7
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JennGM
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| Posted: June 13 2011 at 1:42pm | IP Logged
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I don't know about accredited...I didn't look for that information, but my friend loves St. Thomas Aquinas Academy which totally gives room for substitutions.
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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time4tea
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| Posted: June 14 2011 at 6:58am | IP Logged
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Seton, Kolbe and OLVS will let you use other math programs, such as MCP and Teaching Textbooks, you just need to tell them when you enroll.
As a former MODG family, I can tell you that for MODG, a lot depends on your consultant. Sometimes a consultant has certain preferences and likes to see a family use a certain book, and Saxon is the preferred math program for MODG. However, some consultants are more flexible in what they allow, and in the end, you can appeal their decision to the administrator of the school if they say,"No" to a certain book. If you are looking to enroll with MODG, I would suggest that you state up front on the enrollment form that your ds will be using Teaching Textbooks, so that there are no questions later on.
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Stacy Y
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| Posted: June 15 2011 at 11:58pm | IP Logged
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Seton lets you substitute just about anything and it is very easy...just one phone call. All they require is that your child be able to pass and send in the test for that quarter/grade. I use a ton of different stuff and they really don't care. I have found them really easy to work with over the past 4 years.
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Mom to 4 boys, 2 girls, and baby due this fall
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time4tea
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| Posted: June 16 2011 at 8:15am | IP Logged
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We have used Seton for every grade, K-12, beginning in 2003, both as a fully enrolled family and as just enrolled in individual subjects. In my experience with them, they are the least open to substitutions. While you are always free to augment their curriculum with any other books or materials you choose, Seton formulates their tests based on their books, and if you want to be sure that the dc passes the Seton tests, you will need to either use Seton's books or find other books that will cover everything that is on the Seton tests. This may or may not be an issue in the very early grades, but by 4th/5th grade, the workload really ratchets up and the tests begin to ask very specific questions geared to the student who has read and studied the Seton books. In 6th, 7th and 8th, the workload and the intensity of it only increases.
The only exceptions I am aware of is that in Seton grade school they do offer a range of options for science in the middle grades (either Apologia Young Explorers, the Seton science worktext, or the Rod and Staff science books), and math, where they will allow students to use other programs and will allow parents to submit the publisher provided tests that come with the alternate math program. For Seton high school, you will need to fill out a form and pay for independent study to substitute things like math curriculum, and they do not allow independent study for many subjects (basically only for math and foreign language, or a general elective).
Seton will let you augment their curriculum with whatever else you want to use, but whatever you decide to use, it will have to prepare the student for the Seton tests, which are based on the Seton books.
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Stacy Y
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| Posted: June 16 2011 at 10:29am | IP Logged
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Thanks Tea, we are just starting to dig into the upper grades and I am noticing a big bump in the exams and work.
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Mom to 4 boys, 2 girls, and baby due this fall
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Teachin'Mine2
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| Posted: June 17 2011 at 10:05am | IP Logged
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I'm not familiar with the early elementary grades of Seton, but we've fully enrolled for 8th and 9th. Three subjects must be taken using their materials and tests - English, Religion and History. All the others you can do independent study, or just do on your own. When you choose a different math book, for example, you wouldn't take Seton's tests based on the Saxon math, your student would take tests from your own curriculum and you'd send them in quarterly to have the course recorded on their transcript. You can also choose to simply list it on your own transcript and don't need to send in tests. Just wanted to clarify that this is how it works for high school at least. It's very common to use other sources for science, math and foreign languages.
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time4tea
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| Posted: June 17 2011 at 2:45pm | IP Logged
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Teachin'Mine2 wrote:
| It's very common to use other sources for science, math and foreign languages. |
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Seton will not allow students to take high school biology as an independent study course. You MUST use Seton's materials for this. Also, Seton does charge you extra when you elect to take a high school course independent study vs. using their materials. I recall the fee being about $125.00-$150.00 per independent study course.
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Teachin'Mine2
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| Posted: June 17 2011 at 10:24pm | IP Logged
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time4tea wrote:
Teachin'Mine2 wrote:
| It's very common to use other sources for science, math and foreign languages. |
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Seton will not allow students to take high school biology as an independent study course. You MUST use Seton's materials for this. Also, Seton does charge you extra when you elect to take a high school course independent study vs. using their materials. I recall the fee being about $125.00-$150.00 per independent study course.
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Per Seton's site, the cost for an independent study course is $30 for those in full enrollment. Is it possible that you're thinking of the cost for enrolling in a single course?
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mom of one 13yo dd
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time4tea
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| Posted: June 18 2011 at 7:04am | IP Logged
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Teachin'Mine2 wrote:
Is it possible that you're thinking of the cost for enrolling in a single course?
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Yes, that must be! 
However, even at $30.00 per course, it adds up if the student does multiple courses independent study with Seton (or the family has multiple students doing so), because in addition to this fee you will have to purchase your own books and materials since they will not be included in the full enrollment cost or discounted, as Seton typically does when they loan you the hardcover Saxon texts. Also, many high school students take their independent study courses at a community college, so if a student goes that route, you will have the additional tuition costs for the community college course on top of the independent study fee and the books/materials, and all of that is in addition to your overall tuition costs just to be fully enrolled in the first place. For many families, especially larger ones or families with dc spaced closely together, it becomes cost prohibitive over time. As an aside, this is how MODG became cost prohibitive for my own family. We were not looking at independent study fees, but rather the lesser fees tucked here and there alongside the overall tuition cost, such as the middle school fees, the high school fees, the little fee for this or for that. It began adding up and eventually, we just could not afford the cost of full enrollment anymore and went instead with using the syllabi alone.
Finally just to clarify, I am not trying to dump on Seton here. Our family has used them periodically over the course of the past decade for various grades K-12, both as a fully enrolled family and also just having certain dc enrolled in specific courses, and there are some very positive aspects of their program. However, they are in my experience the least flexible of all of the programs out there. Consider, for example, that with Kolbe there is never an independent study fee at all, and you can substitute for any course, not just certain specified courses (math, foreign language, some of the sciences) as is the case with Seton. There is also no independent study fee with OLVS. I cannot remember whether MODG charges a fee or not for independent study, as my then 10th grader was just following the MODG curriculum per his grade level, and was not taking any outside courses.
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Stacy Y
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| Posted: June 18 2011 at 11:52am | IP Logged
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Are the upper level courses really that bad? Does everything really need to be replaced with other courses? Just curious
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time4tea
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| Posted: June 18 2011 at 12:21pm | IP Logged
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Stacy,
No, the upper level courses are not bad. However, once a student gets into the high school years, their priorities become more focused and they may or may not feel that the Seton course meets their long term career or vocational scheme, for any number or possible reasons.
Some students also want to begin building college credits during high school through their local community college (my oldest, who just graduated h.s. this year, went this route) and would rather pay tuition once and take a course that will give them dual credit for both high school and college. Seton will allow substitution for some things, but not others, such as English, for example, and Biology. Now, I understand that their reasoning for this is because they want to have the opportunity to present a uniquely Christian perspective on those subjects, and I think that is a worthy goal, btw. But there are some students who will want, based on their longer term goals or even just based on finances, to take different courses that may or may not fit well within the Seton framework, not because the Seton courses are "bad", but because the student has specific educational goals that they are trying to meet with the independent study course.
Does this help?
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Teachin'Mine2
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| Posted: June 19 2011 at 10:14pm | IP Logged
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time4tea wrote:
Teachin'Mine2 wrote:
Is it possible that you're thinking of the cost for enrolling in a single course?
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Yes, that must be!
However, even at $30.00 per course, it adds up if the student does multiple courses independent study with Seton (or the family has multiple students doing so), because in addition to this fee you will have to purchase your own books and materials since they will not be included in the full enrollment cost or discounted, as Seton typically does when they loan you the hardcover Saxon texts. Also, many high school students take their independent study courses at a community college, so if a student goes that route, you will have the additional tuition costs for the community college course on top of the independent study fee and the books/materials, and all of that is in addition to your overall tuition costs just to be fully enrolled in the first place. For many families, especially larger ones or families with dc spaced closely together, it becomes cost prohibitive over time. As an aside, this is how MODG became cost prohibitive for my own family. We were not looking at independent study fees, but rather the lesser fees tucked here and there alongside the overall tuition cost, such as the middle school fees, the high school fees, the little fee for this or for that. It began adding up and eventually, we just could not afford the cost of full enrollment anymore and went instead with using the syllabi alone.
Finally just to clarify, I am not trying to dump on Seton here. Our family has used them periodically over the course of the past decade for various grades K-12, both as a fully enrolled family and also just having certain dc enrolled in specific courses, and there are some very positive aspects of their program. However, they are in my experience the least flexible of all of the programs out there. Consider, for example, that with Kolbe there is never an independent study fee at all, and you can substitute for any course, not just certain specified courses (math, foreign language, some of the sciences) as is the case with Seton. There is also no independent study fee with OLVS. I cannot remember whether MODG charges a fee or not for independent study, as my then 10th grader was just following the MODG curriculum per his grade level, and was not taking any outside courses. |
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Just to clarify a few things - and I don't know this may be a change from when you were using Seton, but this is how it is for us now. The math textbooks aren't on loan, you buy them for $20 for textbook and $20 for solutions manual for the high school grades.
If you fully enroll and choose to do your own thing for a course, you don't have to pay the $30 for independent study if you don't need it listed on the Seton transcript. The $30 covers the cost to review the course plans, and review the quarterly exams or work sent in and to list it on the Seton transcript along with the grade. This grade is not averaged into the Seton GPA. For a college course, I can't imagine why anyone would pay the independent study cost as they'd get a separate college transcript from the community college.
If you fully enroll and opt not to take a class through Seton, you can get a credit for the books that would have been included in full enrollment. You can also get this credit if you already have the book and are taking their course.
The three subject areas that must be taken through Seton are history, religion and English, and maybe biology. Their courses have been excellent, but we do science and some others independently. I've been making our own transcript to list these courses separately.
It may have been done differently in years past, but this is our experience now. 
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mom of one 13yo dd
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time4tea
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| Posted: June 20 2011 at 10:50am | IP Logged
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Teachin'Mine2 wrote:
Just to clarify a few things - and I don't know this may be a change from when you were using Seton, but this is how it is for us now. The math textbooks aren't on loan, you buy them for $20 for textbook and $20 for solutions manual for the high school grades.
If you fully enroll and choose to do your own thing for a course, you don't have to pay the $30 for independent study if you don't need it listed on the Seton transcript. The $30 covers the cost to review the course plans, and review the quarterly exams or work sent in and to list it on the Seton transcript along with the grade. This grade is not averaged into the Seton GPA. For a college course, I can't imagine why anyone would pay the independent study cost as they'd get a separate college transcript from the community college.
If you fully enroll and opt not to take a class through Seton, you can get a credit for the books that would have been included in full enrollment. You can also get this credit if you already have the book and are taking their course.
The three subject areas that must be taken through Seton are history, religion and English, and maybe biology. Their courses have been excellent, but we do science and some others independently. I've been making our own transcript to list these courses separately.
It may have been done differently in years past, but this is our experience now. |
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This past year 2010-2011, I had two dc enrolled in individual courses with Seton high school, and 2 dc enrolled in individual courses with Seton grade school. In previous years, we have had different children fully enrolled and/or partially enrolled for different grade levels.
The math books are $20.00 in addition to your enrollment - either for full enrollment or single course - IF you are using Saxon. If you choose to use for example Teaching Textbooks or Math U See, then of course you are responsible for purchasing those books yourself, in addition to your other enrollment costs. And while you are credited for books that you either own or do not need, you are credited (for Seton Press books) for the wholesale as opposed to the retail value of the book(s), or the $20.00 for Saxon math.
If you choose to do your own thing and not declare a course to Seton, of course you would not apply for independent study in those cases and would therefore not be subject to any additional fees for review and recordation. I should have stated more clearly that with regard to my comments about pursuing independent study while enrolled with Seton, my assumption was that this would be a high school student who is fully enrolled and looking for a Seton high school diploma. In such a case, they are most likely going to want to invest only in those classes that will count toward the 22 necessary credits for a Seton diploma. I am not talking about GPA here at all, rather I am talking about actual overall credit counts as well as having completed certain credits within the specific distributions needed for graduation. If a student chooses not to go through Seton's independent study process, Seton isn't going to award them credit for the course, which could mean trouble if they want a Seton diploma.
For example, if a student seeking a Seton diploma takes Algebra 1 at the local community college and chooses not to go through Seton's independent study process first in order to receive credit for the course, Seton will not officially recognize that the course was ever completed - whether you have a community college transcript to prove it or not. Because Seton requires Algebra 1 to be completed in order to earn a Seton diploma, if the student still wants that Seton diploma, he/she will have to re-take the course because seeking independent study credit after the fact is not permitted: "In order to earn Seton credit, an Independent Study Course must meet academic criteria, be approved by Seton prior to the start of instruction, and be conducted with Seton oversight and monitorship of the student’s progress. Credit is awarded on satisfactory completion of the course as long as it is completed within twelve months."
While it is possible to get prior courses listed as transfer credit, the website infers that that situation is usually reserved only for incoming high school students who have already completed a year or two of high school elsewhere. It isn't clear whether this would also be extended to current Seton students who simply chose to not utilize the independent study process before taking a course.
Now, if the student isn't looking for a Seton diploma, OR they are taking a class (such as drama, music, fine art., etc.) that Seton doesn't require for graduation in the first place, then maintaining your own transcript or including a copy of the community college transcript as proof of course completion would be a perfectly fine option.
Regarding what courses must be taken through Seton, here is what Seton's own website says:
"Because the Seton courses are distinctly Catholic, and because we want our diploma to reflect achievement of our Seton courses, the following subjects may not be taken as Independent Study Courses: Religion, English, History, Literature, and Government. However, for students living outside the United States, we do accept Government and History courses for their own country."
I have never been very good at setting hyperlinks, but here is a link to the Seton website that details everything about independent study with them: http://www.setonhome.org/curriculum/ind-study.shtml
Finally, I am not wanting to "beat a dead horse" here so to speak, but in my own personal experience with Seton - and I have had many experiences with them with various dc that stretch out over the course of the past decade - for a family who is enrolling in a program because they are seeking an accredited report card/transcript/diploma, they are the least flexible of all of the homeschool programs out there. This is my own opinion based on my experiences with Seton, of course, and is not meant to reflect any else's opinions or experiences with them. Yes, you can use any material you want, keep your on transcripts, take courses from a variety of different sources, substitute one textbook for another, etc., etc., and still be enrolled with Seton. But if what you are looking for is a Seton report card or diploma, that flexibility to just "do your own thing" largely disappears. But again, a lot has to do with a family's own priorities and why they are enrolling in a program in the first place. Whether or not a family needs the Seton report card/transcript/diploma will make all the difference in how much flexibility they will be able to enjoy.
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Accredited Schools
