Oh, Dearest Mother, Sweetest Virgin of Altagracia, our Patroness. You are our Advocate and to you we recommend our needs. You are our Teacher and like disciples we come to learn from the example of your holy life. You are our Mother, and like children, we come to offer you all of the love of our hearts. Receive, dearest Mother, our offerings and listen attentively to our supplications. Amen.



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Mackfam
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Posted: July 11 2011 at 10:58pm | IP Logged Quote Mackfam

lapazfarm wrote:
Just as a comparison for a slower reader, I tend to read aloud more to my dd than most would for a child her age (she will be 10 next month) because she has dyslexia and reading is a chore for her and very slow going. I don't want to slow down her learning because of her reading disability, so the majority of the pages read will be read-alouds for her, which she then narrates (some but not all).
I also ask her to read aloud to me one short selection per day (to work on her decoding skills), and then she has one silent reading book which she narrates to me.
Read alouds here:
Nature stories (such as Burgess or Buckley)
Literature selection (an ongoing chapter book, Shakespeare stories, poetry, etc)
History Stories (This year 50 Famous Stories by Baldwin)
Grammarland (new this year)
Math stories
Saint stories
Bible stories
Art books

As she makes progress in her reading speed dd will gradually be taking over some of the read-alouds as independent reads.

This is an excellent example of the spectrum which this question/answer about read alouds can cover and the malleability of this approach for an individual child's needs. Glad you posted, Theresa!

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Posted: July 11 2011 at 11:36pm | IP Logged Quote SuzanneG

A page is defined as about 300 words. So, for example King Alfred and the Cakes in Fifty Famous Stories is 516 words. So, almost 2 pages.

I just pulled a MONDAY from my then 7.5 yo winter/spring day.....Here's what it looks like reading-wise:   

Read Independently:
:: "devotional"--1/2 page
:: 2 pages from My First Holy Communion
:: 1-2 pages - Nature Reader
:: 1 ch. of A Doctor Like Papa (beginning chapter book)...which is about 6 pages in the book, but is probably only about 2-3 pages "counted"

Read Together / Aloud:
:: Story of the World - audio (2-3 pages)
:: 1 ch. Nacar 3-5 pages
:: Picture Book (4-5 pages)


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Posted: July 11 2011 at 11:59pm | IP Logged Quote SuzanneG

And, dd-1 at that age (7), wasn't reading anything by herself, and here is an example of a day's reading:

Read Aloud/Together:

:: Fifty Famous Stories 2 pages
:: Paddle-to-the-Sea 1 page
:: Bible Story 1 page
:: Charlotte's Web 4 pages
:: Picture Book 2-4 pages

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Posted: July 12 2011 at 12:20am | IP Logged Quote SuzanneG

Mackfam wrote:
Yes, Charlotte Mason's students did read this much. My children do read books and pages that reflect these page counts at the appropriate ages/grades. But...and this is a BIG BUT...you cannot accomplish this level of reading if you are back-filling your lesson plans in ANY WAY with additional curriculum or activities. This level of reading (which is doable) is rigorous and complete and does not leave room for additional curriculum.   


I think this is important to emphasize. We are not doing any sort of other curriculum. If we do "extras" I do plan accordingly and the page-count goes down naturally. ie: 1st week of Journey North or Iditarod, etc.

And, please don't get the impression that I sit around counting pages! I just like to stare at spread sheets and talk about it!    I go into "page count" mode for a couple days during the post-booklist-phase which is right now....and then I don't really think about it for the rest of the year.

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Posted: July 12 2011 at 2:08am | IP Logged Quote CrunchyMom

Okay, that makes sense. Phew! I can easily see getting the page count in if it includes reading aloud before they are able to read independently. I just couldn't wrap my head around a 1st grader reading that much in addition to history, literature, and nature reading, which, my ds7 is definitely not reading independently.

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Posted: July 12 2011 at 5:28am | IP Logged Quote kristacecilia

Mackfam wrote:
I feel I need to emphasize again that this is a guide, a tool and reference, and should not be used as a measuring stick to determine whether or not your child may or may not be reading *enough*. As parents, we make use of tools by considering them in light of individual children and their needs.


Funnily enough, I really needed to see something like this to keep myself from expecting him to read too much, which seems to be my personal M.O. when it comes to messing up homeschooling.

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Posted: July 12 2011 at 7:57am | IP Logged Quote Betsy

I think that Theresa has done an excellent job of addressing this issues. But, I wanted to add as CM fact that seems to get glossed over and causes us mother to get overwhelmed.

In CM schools no child would ever move up a form if they were not ready.

I oftten think of Betsy in "Understood Betsy" when she started her new school and didn't know what grade she was in!

CM did not have a concept of grades like we do today. So, while CM had lofty definitions for what books or amounts were being read at each form, the child was only doing the work if they were ready for it.   I think it is a difficult concept for us to really implement, because we tend to compare and feel like we are getting behind if someone else's child is doing something at a certain age. However, if we respect the child and where they are my experience has been that everything evens out in the end more or less.

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Posted: July 12 2011 at 9:01am | IP Logged Quote Grace&Chaos

This has been interesting to follow. I can honestly say that I've just gone by instinct with my girls. I know how much is too much reading for them and I've tried to plan that way.

A small group of moms and I just watched the Simply CM dvd seminar this weekend. This was an immersion into CM for them. The amount of pages to read was never addressed. I tried to encourage the moms to set a second day to watch the Books N Things seminar. (they all want too) I'm looking forward too watching it, especially after this thread.

Maybe because this would be another element to add to planning a term (for several dc) I'm thinking it would be tedious . So for those of you whom seem to try to follow the page number counting guidelines, do you use a system/program to figure this out? Does this determine what books you consider over others?

I've considered the SCM planner for this reason and then forget about it. Is this a good tool? Does anyone use it?

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Posted: July 12 2011 at 9:06am | IP Logged Quote SuzanneG

Grace&Chaos wrote:
This has been interesting to follow. I can honestly say that I've just gone by instinct with my girls. I know how much is too much reading for them and I've tried to plan that way.


Yes....up until a year ago, I had forgotten about "page count" I had read about it years ago, but forgotten about it, so when I came upon it again, I went through my "log" of what we had done that year and got a ballpark figure and it was "within the range" which surprised me very much! So, going by instinct is what we should all be doing.....again, the page count is just a tool.

Betsy wrote:
In CM schools no child would ever move up a form if they were not ready.


Betsy wrote:

CM did not have a concept of grades like we do today. So, while CM had lofty definitions for what books or amounts were being read at each form, the child was only doing the work if they were ready for it.   I think it is a difficult concept for us to really implement, because we tend to compare and feel like we are getting behind if someone else's child is doing something at a certain age. However, if we respect the child and where they are my experience has been that everything evens out in the end more or less.


Precisely! Great points, Betsy!

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Posted: July 12 2011 at 9:11am | IP Logged Quote CrunchyMom

Thanks, Betsy, for stating that. I feel blessed to live in a state where there are no academic requirements for homeschoolers. I really don't pay much attention to the grade level and just fill out the sheet (1st grader, schooled 180 days), and then I am free to work at whatever level I choose. I really feel like what I'm planning for my 7 year old would be considered 1 1/2, lol.

There is often almost a year's difference in age for children in the same grade, and I feel like he was just ready for typical first grade work this past December. I understand why assigning grade level is important for record keeping of large numbers of children, but I do love customizing a plan for my child's abilities so I can keep him challenged but not overwhelmed. I think if I were to put him in school at this age, he would be bored if held back to first grade and overwhelmed if put in second.



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Posted: July 12 2011 at 9:26am | IP Logged Quote CrunchyMom

Grace&Chaos wrote:
This has been interesting to follow. I can honestly say that I've just gone by instinct with my girls. I know how much is too much reading for them and I've tried to plan that way.

A small group of moms and I just watched the Simply CM dvd seminar this weekend. This was an immersion into CM for them. The amount of pages to read was never addressed. I tried to encourage the moms to set a second day to watch the Books N Things seminar. (they all want too) I'm looking forward too watching it, especially after this thread.

Maybe because this would be another element to add to planning a term (for several dc) I'm thinking it would be tedious . So for those of you whom seem to try to follow the page number counting guidelines, do you use a system/program to figure this out? Does this determine what books you consider over others?

I've considered the SCM planner for this reason and then forget about it. Is this a good tool? Does anyone use it?


I didn't really count pages or words, but I figured that the Ambleside recommendations would come out about right for the grade levels since they seem to follow CM recommendations pretty faithfully.

If you look at the individual grades, they have a page where they break out the assignments by weeks. I'm using some of their recommendations for 1st grade, so, I kept those as they had them spread throughout the year, and then used the "find and replace" tool in a Word document to insert some of the books I wanted to use that seemed a comparable replacement.

This technique might not work for you, but it seemed less overwhelming to me than trying to count pages and distribute throughout the year accordingly from scratch. You might, even if you don't do it exactly that way, look at their plans for the grades just to get an idea for how many books/assignments are covered each week.

Also, the Tanglewood planner has forms to fill out. It is pretty basic stuff (just enter the number of pages total, divide, and arrive at the average per week), but since it takes you through it sort of step by step, it might help you to just have the pages ready made to enter the info into. I'm sure the SCM planner has a similar tool, but the Tanglewood planner (PDF) is very affordable, so you might start there to see if it is enough of a spine for you.

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Posted: July 12 2011 at 9:34am | IP Logged Quote Mackfam

Grace&Chaos wrote:
So for those of you whom seem to try to follow the page number counting guidelines, do you use a system/program to figure this out? Does this determine what books you consider over others?

This is an excellent question, and a good point! I plan by instinct as well. You have a good sense of what's right, what fits, and once you do, this is the best guide!! The page count guide is something I pull out after I plan down to the week. So...here's how I plan (I'll bold where the page count guide comes in) -->

************************************************************ *
1) Build a yearly booklist.
2) Break the yearly booklist down into terms (divide up the books into the 3 terms).
3) Print it.
4) Write all over it.
5) Look at the books.
6) Flip through the pages.
7) Look at the table of contents.
8) Eliminate a few books at this point (this isn't a goal, but it always happens as I begin to narrow and focus).

I'M NARROWING MORE HERE....

9) Divide up books into term reading pages --> this is purely mathematical --> number of pages divided by number of terms....or number of pages divided by number of weeks the book will be read.
10) Start building a weekly lesson plan for the term.
11) List the books and humanities we'll do daily.
12) Further the mathematical computations and take the page counts down to a weekly and daily level.
13) Print.
14) Write all over the plan. (once it's written and printed it's often EASY to see areas that are over or under planned)
15) Look at each day of the week on the weekly plan and count up the number of pages assigned for that day - circle totals at the top of each day.
16) Reference page count tool.
    Compare the number of pages I've assigned on given days.

    ** Is it waaaaaaay more than CM used?
    ** Waaaaay under?   
    ** Does it seem balanced overall?
    ** Is the amount assigned going to overwhelm a particular child?
    ** Does the amount of reading allow time for margin in the day so that it doesn't snuff out opportunities for creativity and Masterly Inactivity?
    ** Have I taken into consideration other things going on in a given day (if we have Mass and errands on one morning, then the day's page counts need to be significantly lower!)
    ** Are we immersed in a unit study/rabbit trail? Page counts should not be as heavy.
17) Adjust pages and books assigned as needed --> this may affect the weekly plan, the term plan, and the yearly booklist.

I'M REALLY NARROWING THIS PLAN INTO SOMETHING WORKABLE NOW!!!

18) Print again with the new changes reflected. If I'm working with an older child, I sit down with them at this point and invite their thoughts. Make further adjustments.
19) Print WEEK 1 and live it!!!!!
    OBSERVE EVERYTHING - make notes directly on the lesson plans!!!

    ** Is the child overwhelmed?
    ** Is it clear that the amount of reading is a burden?
    ** Is the child able to read through the subjects of the day in a balanced way - in other words, some subjects aren't toppling others in terms of amount read?
    ** Weekly meeting is super helpful for me in inviting the child's input. This can be done even with smaller children in a limited way. It is NOT inviting a decision from them...it IS inviting input and respecting it and really listening to what they're saying!
20) Further refine the lesson plans and continue living them.

***************************************************
At this point the plans start to feel comfortable, and usually require minimal tweaking or adjusting. That's 20 steps and almost ALL OF IT springs from my intuition and what I know about my children: their needs, sensitivities, gifts, weaknesses, likes, dislikes, and abilities. Only once do I refer to the page count guide to use as a tool and help in planning.

I hope this list helps put this guide in context more.

Grace&Chaos wrote:
I've considered the SCM planner for this reason and then forget about it. Is this a good tool? Does anyone use it?

I do have this and used it one year. I have referred to it only a little since then....actually rarely now, but that's not necessarily a reflection of its usefulness. It was very helpful for me in giving me an overall sense of how to plan a CM education working from the big picture down to the daily details. So, while it's not necessarily used a great deal by me, I do credit it with helping me easing into a style of planning which is intuitive for me but keeps in mind some universal helps like planning from the big picture downward.

Hope this is a help!

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Posted: July 12 2011 at 9:48am | IP Logged Quote Mackfam

CrunchyMom wrote:
I didn't really count pages or words, but I figured that the Ambleside recommendations would come out about right for the grade levels since they seem to follow CM recommendations pretty faithfully.

This is another excellent way to get a sense of how much reading is going on....how many books you're using, etc, and it is EXACTLY what I used to do before I came up with that page count table!!! I would build my plans and at step 16, I'd just take a look at Ambleside and MA and see how my plans compared for that grade/age....again taking into account the individual child. Just a quick comparison would usually let me see that I might be pretty close...or that I'd forgotten Shakespeare altogether ( ), and I'd make adjustments again and roll with it, again observing the children closely for a sense of their abilities and how much was being asked on the lesson plans. So, this is another great way to get a sense of this if using a tool that has CONCRETE numbers on it would be too paralyzing or might be a temptation to a mom that feels like her plans HAVE TO FIT the guide because they absolutely DON'T!!!!

CrunchyMom wrote:
Also, the Tanglewood planner has forms to fill out. It is pretty basic stuff (just enter the number of pages total, divide, and arrive at the average per week), but since it takes you through it sort of step by step, it might help you to just have the pages ready made to enter the info into. I'm sure the SCM planner has a similar tool, but the Tanglewood planner (PDF) is very affordable, so you might start there to see if it is enough of a spine for you.

Oh, I'm glad you remembered to mention Tanglewood! YES! They are so very affordable, and though I never used their lesson planner pages as written, I learned some basics there as well, and got some great ideas for how to format my lesson plans. In fact, it was on the Tanglewood planner that I first saw this:

O Narrate

....and I thought, "what a great idea!!! Of course!!! A capital letter "O" to indicate to me that I need to be accountable to something!!"

Do check out Tanglewood!


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Posted: July 12 2011 at 10:39am | IP Logged Quote Betsy

CrunchyMom wrote:

I didn't really count pages or words, but I figured that the Ambleside recommendations would come out about right for the grade levels since they seem to follow CM recommendations pretty faithfully.


(Lindsay, this post isn't directed at you, I was just making a point from your post. I am positive that you, as well as most of us, do what I am going to say)

I have also used Ambleside as a reference! However, they state somewhere on the site that levels don't necessarily coordinate to grade levels. So, while they are very good at fleshing out CM's work and putting in into a curriculum form, you have to take the child's readiness into account first.

In my own experience I did AO level 1-4 with my oldest. About half way through level 4 the reading got harder and the book content was way more mature than my 9yo was at the time. We ended up abandoning AO for the rest of that year. Looking back at that year it was the right thing for that child, and now at 11 he IS ready for Robinson Cursoe on a reading level AND maturity level.

At the time this was really difficult for me to do! I am glad that I listened to my instinct, though. We had a close friend that was also doing level 4 that year and it felt like my son was "behind" or "not smart" to say that that book just was just to difficult and mature for him. But, now he would LOVE it and be able to handle it all.

Okay, I will get off my soap box. But, I just wanted to say that even with AO you need really look at where your child is and not correlate level to grade or age! Truly I can say that I have found reading level 1 work to be very edifying as an adult, so even a older child would find great value in starting there.



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Posted: July 12 2011 at 10:48am | IP Logged Quote JennGM

Mackfam wrote:
When you look at the PNEU schools, you can see what books they used, how many were read from at a time, and so on. A couple of years ago, Simply Charlotte Mason (SCM) came along and compiled one (of many) PNEU examples (Programme 93, 1922) into an easy to read table format in The Books and Things Seminar workbook.
    **Side note - if you need a refresher course on CM, I recommend the entire seminar, if you are pretty familiar with CM philosophy, just the workbook for the seminar is a valuable tool to have on your shelf because of the tables in the back which contain this compilation of reading and example schedules which were derived from PNEU form examples. The references in the SCM workbook are easy to read and I refer to them often.
   


I watched this seminar, and really enjoyed it. I then ordered the booklet, so I could have it as a reference. I just wanted to note that I'm still waiting for the package, even though I ordered it at the beginning of June. I'm not impressed with the customer service, as I contacted them twice and I STILL don't have it. Seems they should have resent another copy after the second time! Anyway, I'm hoping it was an isolated event, but after how it was handled, I am seriously reconsidering buying again from SCM. I just wanted to give a heads up... All packages are mailed via media mail, but that information isn't shared, either.

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Posted: July 12 2011 at 10:59am | IP Logged Quote Mackfam

Betsy wrote:
   Truly I can say that I have found reading level 1 work to be very edifying as an adult, so even a older child would find great value in starting there.

I totally agree, Betsy! It's a testament to the living nature of a book, and it's why I really enjoy planning out a CM booklist/education on my own. Many books defy age *ranges* altogether, and while some living books are certainly for a more mature reader, I find that this is just a starting point for this type of book, not necessarily the beginning of a limiting age range...just...a beginning. To me, this is one of the most wonderful aspects of a living book: it doesn't fade, become less, or grow stale, but rather grows richer and often more meaningful the more it's read. Wondering if you have a living book in your hand? Ask yourself if it could be read 10 years from now by the same child and still be enjoyed? If yes, it's because relationships deepen and grow; they are living.

I'm rambling!

Betsy, I'm glad you trust your intuition and plan booklists for yourself! This is an aspect of a CM education that is such a rich and rewarding joy for me...the considering and planning!!! It's yet another one of those relationship building aspects! I grow and my relationships stretch and deepen when I consider and plan because it makes me be accountable to ideas and own them...or not....and brainstorm them out to potentials that I sometimes never thought existed.

Do I believe this?
Is this really appropriate for this child?
Is this necessary?
Am I micro-focused on this when a macro-focus yields a more relaxed view?
Is this going to gently stretch and open the window to new ideas?
Will this add richness to our education as a life?

Glad you gave yourself permission to save Robinson Crusoe for a later day! Intuition is a great blessing, is it not??!!

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Posted: July 12 2011 at 11:05am | IP Logged Quote Mackfam

JennGM wrote:
I'm hoping it was an isolated event, but after how it was handled, I am seriously reconsidering buying again from SCM. I just wanted to give a heads up...

I'm really glad you shared your experience, Jenn! This will be very helpful for anyone discerning a purchase in the future! I know we're all carefully trying to steward dollars - how upsetting that you've had to wait so long for the booklet!

Here's hoping the mailman soon brings it!!!

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Posted: July 12 2011 at 11:24am | IP Logged Quote SeaStar

Mackfam wrote:
JennGM wrote:
I'm hoping it was an isolated event, but after how it was handled, I am seriously reconsidering buying again from SCM. I just wanted to give a heads up...

I'm really glad you shared your experience, Jenn! This will be very helpful for anyone discerning a purchase in the future! I know we're all carefully trying to steward dollars - how upsetting that you've had to wait so long for the booklet!

Here's hoping the mailman soon brings it!!!


It might have been an isolated thing. I recently ordered a book from them, and it came with staples only on the bottom, not the top of the spine to hold it together. They sent me a replacement right away, which unfortunately had the same problem.

When I had to call back and tell them that the second book was also defective, they were very kind and took it as an opportunity to look at all their copies of that book. They found one box with stapling issues and were happy that they could pull it before those copies were sent out. They also refunded the cost of the book to me.

I can't complain about that.

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SuzanneG
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Posted: July 12 2011 at 12:01pm | IP Logged Quote SuzanneG

Betsy wrote:
I have also used Ambleside as a reference! However, they state somewhere on the site that levels don't necessarily coordinate to grade levels. So, while they are very good at fleshing out CM's work and putting in into a curriculum form, you have to take the child's readiness into account first.

In my own experience I did AO level 1-4 with my oldest. About half way through level 4 the reading got harder and the book content was way more mature than my 9yo was at the time.


Yes....AO's "levels" do NOT coordinate to grade levels, necessarily...and usually not. My daughter would've been in 4th grade, but was doing a modified version of AO-2. One of the most common mistakes of people who are pulling a second grader from school and beginning to homeschool, they start with AO-2!!!! YIKES! SO HARD!

And, there is a HUGE HUGE jump in level from AO-3 to AO-4, so what you said, totally meshes with what i've heard from others and experienced myself.

I do not pay ANY attention to Ambleside's "number levels".....I look at the reading level and content and go from there.

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Betsy
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Posted: July 12 2011 at 1:03pm | IP Logged Quote Betsy

SuzanneG wrote:

And, there is a HUGE HUGE jump in level from AO-3 to AO-4, so what you said, totally meshes with what i've heard from others and experienced myself.


Glad that I am not alone!
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