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kristacecilia
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Posted: July 11 2011 at 7:57am | IP Logged Quote kristacecilia

In another thread, Jen and I were discussing how much reading is appropriate for a seven year old using Charlotte Mason's methods. She said:

Mackfam wrote:
2 - 4 living books read from each day :: 4 pages from each book :: up to about 16 pages read per day

My figures are actually a little higher than CM's sourch (PNEU schools), which is what this guideline is based on for a child that is around 7 yo. But, I have strong readers, too, and have found that a slightly higher reading count works well for us. Since you mentioned your son was a strong reader, I thought I'd share my guideline with you.


Mackfam wrote:
At 7, we're really *just* easing into reading about history, therefore our reading selection is light enough so that it doesn't topple our reading guide (which I listed above of 16 pages a day) and doesn't overwhelm young readers with more mature details of history. The wonderful thing about living books is that they span a very wide range of ages; I don't discount a quality living picture book for ANY age!!

I usually take one or two great living books and break it down into VERY bitesize reading chunks for independent reading for the year, and then read aloud A LOT of picture books and maybe read aloud one chapter book to round out the rest.


So Jen, I would love to know what other subjects your 16 pages cover?

And if you- or anyone else!- knows, what does CM say are the appropriate subjects to be covering with living books for age seven?

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Posted: July 11 2011 at 8:05am | IP Logged Quote JennGM

I will have an 8 year old, so I'm wondering what applies to him. May I piggyback the question to ask to see the whole picture? I think Jen shared a link or a chart before that showed a breakdown....but I can't remember where. Jen, will you share it again?

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Posted: July 11 2011 at 11:12am | IP Logged Quote Mackfam

Sure gals. I'll share!

It's important to note that CM didn't dictate the number of pages and the number of books read per term in a table form and then hand it out to all of her schools to follow. She did introduce important ideas like setting a child's feet in a wide room (variety - a liberal education), and allowing opportunities for a child to enter into a relationship with an idea/author which necessitates a moderate feasting...not a gluttonous feasting on living books. This idea of variety, savoring, feasting in moderation and time to digest ideas provides the direction and guidance for the *rubber-meeting-the-road* number of pages per book/per day/per term kind of guides.

When you look at the PNEU schools, you can see what books they used, how many were read from at a time, and so on. A couple of years ago, Simply Charlotte Mason (SCM) came along and compiled one (of many) PNEU examples (Programme 93, 1922) into an easy to read table format in The Books and Things Seminar workbook.
    **Side note - if you need a refresher course on CM, I recommend the entire seminar, if you are pretty familiar with CM philosophy, just the workbook for the seminar is a valuable tool to have on your shelf because of the tables in the back which contain this compilation of reading and example schedules which were derived from PNEU form examples. The references in the SCM workbook are easy to read and I refer to them often.
Another important note is that CM's schools completed 6 day weeks AND there was significant reading which was done independently (outside of class time).

All of this CONTEXT hopefully conveys to you that these guides are just that, GUIDES. Again, it's important NOT to get caught up in following things like this slavishly because then you start using the guides and booklists as a substitute for the philosophy and the ideas which really are the meat and potatoes of an education like this. Having said that, if you are writing booklists and lesson plans on your own for a CM education, these kind of guides can be a VERY USEFUL TOOL!!! Most of it is just a mathematical calculation going from YEAR --> TERM --> WEEK --> DAY.

Helpful tools:

** PUS Time Table Examples for all Forms
** Curious and want to do some counting for yourself? PNEU Programmes for different years and Forms (grade levels)
** PNEU classes and forms with page counts listed
    **Important note - FORMS 1A and 1B and their corresponding grades are reversed from what you'd normally think they would reflect. In other words --

    1B = age 6, grade 1 :: 1A = age 7-9, grades 2-3
************************************

I'll be happy to share my family guide which is based on other PNEU examples as well as Programme 93, which is the Programme which the SCM guides are based on (see Programme 93: Form I, Form II, Form III, Form IV). Here's where I've just identified that this is my unique guide, and it does vary in places from the PNEU guides (clearly noted on this guide). I prefer handy table compilations since I plan across a spectrum of ages/forms/grades at one time and this compilation is my answer to this need.

Based on a 5 day school week :: 36 week year:

2011-07-11_200422_Scheduling_Books_and_Pages.pdf

Edited to add -- Vertical format of this chart:

2012-05-10_151718_Scheduling_Books_and_Pages_--_Vertical_ori ent.pdf

Hope this is a helpful tool as you plan!

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Posted: July 11 2011 at 3:52pm | IP Logged Quote Connections

Helpful?

I'll say!

Thanks Jen. This is a VERY helpful resource.
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Posted: July 11 2011 at 5:50pm | IP Logged Quote lapazfarm

I want to emphasize, as Jen also did, that these numbers should serve as a GUIDE ONLY.
We each really need to look closely at our children's reading abilities, retention level, attention span, tolerance level, etc and determine what is the appropriate amount of independent reading FOR THEM per day/week/term, etc.

For example, my dd9, with her learning disabilities, would have dissolved into a puddle of tears if I had asked her to read 16 pages at that age. For her, about 4 pages and she was maxed out. Reading is hard work for her!
Also, in determining page numbers,remember that not all "pages" are the same, if you know what I mean. 16 pages from a Bob Book does not equal 16 pages of Charlottes Web, obviously. Determining the reading level of those pages is vital in determining the number of pages expected.
So while these types of lists and charts can be immensely helpful in giving us a baseline to go by, they cannot substitute for close observation of our individual children in determining the appropriate amount of independent reading.

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Posted: July 11 2011 at 6:10pm | IP Logged Quote kristacecilia

Jen! This is so helpful, thank you!

I am working my way through the original homeschooling series, but I get so little time to read and so little of THAT time my brain is functioning well enough to retain or even understand what I am reading.... it's just going very slow. I need like a "Charlotte Mason Quick Start Guide" for while I am still working on reading her wonderful books!

Thanks for all your help!

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Posted: July 11 2011 at 6:12pm | IP Logged Quote kristacecilia

Theresa,

Wonderful insight, and absolutely right.

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Posted: July 11 2011 at 7:01pm | IP Logged Quote CrunchyMom

I think I may be missing something obvious, but when planning for 6 and 7 I am not thinking of them actually reading much of the assignments, I'm thinking of it as read alouds. Are these page counts including all literature and history or just what the child reads alone? Surely we are not restricting what is studied at these ages to what they can read on their own? So, yes, what are these page counts referring to exactly.

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Posted: July 11 2011 at 7:06pm | IP Logged Quote CrunchyMom

Also, Jen, I keep studying your chart and looking at the column "number of books read in a week" thinking there must be some mistake, but I can't fornthe life of me just "know what you mean" which I'd rather do than appear to point out a mistake , but if there is no mistake, it isn't making sense to me.

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Posted: July 11 2011 at 7:09pm | IP Logged Quote JennGM

CrunchyMom wrote:
Also, Jen, I keep studying your chart and looking at the column "number of books read in a week" thinking there must be some mistake, but I can't fornthe life of me just "know what you mean" which I'd rather do than appear to point out a mistake , but if there is no mistake, it isn't making sense to me.


It should be pages there...because the number of books is further down the row.

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Posted: July 11 2011 at 7:53pm | IP Logged Quote SeaStar

CrunchyMom wrote:
I think I may be missing something obvious, but when planning for 6 and 7 I am not thinking of them actually reading much of the assignments, I'm thinking of it as read alouds. Are these page counts including all literature and history or just what the child reads alone? Surely we are not restricting what is studied at these ages to what they can read on their own? So, yes, what are these page counts referring to exactly.


That is my question as well. Are these pages that the child reads alone?
I can't imagine my ds, who is 8, reading 16 pages a day on his own in addition to his other school work. Right now he reads anywhere from 2-4 pages on his own. I read aloud quite a bit, and then my two dc narrate that to me- though not every thing is narrated. 16 pages a day seems a lot for the younger elementary to do independently.

Plus, I'm not sure how I could incorporate that much independent reading
while at the same time switching up activities to use different parts of the brain. The school day would get very long at my house....


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Posted: July 11 2011 at 8:03pm | IP Logged Quote Mackfam

CrunchyMom wrote:
Also, Jen, I keep studying your chart and looking at the column "number of books read in a week" thinking there must be some mistake, but I can't fornthe life of me just "know what you mean" which I'd rather do than appear to point out a mistake , but if there is no mistake, it isn't making sense to me.


It IS a mistake. Thanks for catching it!!

I corrected it:

2011-07-11_200217_Scheduling_Books_and_Pages.pdf

I'm going to edit the first post to insert the file with corrections. Glad it's a help.

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Posted: July 11 2011 at 8:10pm | IP Logged Quote Mackfam

CrunchyMom wrote:
I think I may be missing something obvious, but when planning for 6 and 7 I am not thinking of them actually reading much of the assignments, I'm thinking of it as read alouds.

That is correct, Lindsay. My 6 yo is just starting to read. His books and page counts are all read aloud.

CrunchyMom wrote:
Are these page counts including all literature and history or just what the child reads alone? Surely we are not restricting what is studied at these ages to what they can read on their own? So, yes, what are these page counts referring to exactly.

I do not count readers as part of the page counts because those are not narrated, nor are they read for their literary value. I count all living books, whether they are read aloud or independently as part of the book/page count. This includes natural history, religion/faith, literature, history, Shakespeare...any living book. I don't always count picture books as a part of our page count.

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Posted: July 11 2011 at 8:21pm | IP Logged Quote Mackfam

kristacecilia wrote:
So Jen, I would love to know what other subjects your 16 pages cover?


Here are my 1st term, 2nd grade lesson plans so you can see how I spread out the books and the pages across the day for our current term. I have a 6 yo in 1st/2nd grade-ish so it should be pretty close to your 7 yo.

2nd grade, 1st term
2011-07-11_201600_Term_1-2nd-2011_12.pdf

In case there are others with older children for whom these lesson plans might help....

6th grade, 1st term:
2011-07-11_201903_Term_1-week1-5-6th-2011_12.pdf

10th grade, 1st term:
2011-07-11_202050_Term_1-Week_1-5-10th-2011_12.pdf

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Posted: July 11 2011 at 9:08pm | IP Logged Quote Mackfam

I feel I need to emphasize again that this is a guide, a tool and reference, and should not be used as a measuring stick to determine whether or not your child may or may not be reading *enough*. As parents, we make use of tools by considering them in light of individual children and their needs.

Yes, Charlotte Mason's students did read this much. My children do read books and pages that reflect these page counts at the appropriate ages/grades. But...and this is a BIG BUT...you cannot accomplish this level of reading if you are back-filling your lesson plans in ANY WAY with additional curriculum or activities. This level of reading (which is doable) is rigorous and complete and does not leave room for additional curriculum.   

**Please note** this is not meant as a statement on blending CM with other curriculums. A CM education with CM methods is exhaustive and thorough, therefore a guide which proposes this level of reading should be read in light of a curriculum which is based exclusively on CM methods. It is understood that families with more adapted CM ideas and methods will tweak a guide like this accordingly (or not use it at all! ).

SeaStar wrote:
I can't imagine my ds, who is 8, reading 16 pages a day on his own in addition to his other school work. Right now he reads anywhere from 2-4 pages on his own. I read aloud quite a bit, and then my two dc narrate that to me- though not every thing is narrated. 16 pages a day seems a lot for the younger elementary to do independently.

We may have been cross posting when I posted about this earlier, Melinda, but those read alouds count as part of this page count. With your reading aloud, you might be surprised how close you come to the numbers listed. Of course, each child is very different: I've had two 8yo's that could easily read 16 pages and more independently as long as most of it wasn't too heavy. The point is, the 16 pages is a TOTAL, and includes audio books, books you read aloud, books read independently - any living book counts.

SeaStar wrote:
Plus, I'm not sure how I could incorporate that much independent reading
while at the same time switching up activities to use different parts of the brain. The school day would get very long at my house....

My 6yo's day stretches out quite a bit on paper (that's built in margin!! ), but in actuality his day takes about 2 hours to complete - and that includes around 12 - 14 pages read each day. I don't stress about switching up hands/head work that much, but rather follow the cues of my son. If he seems like he's close to glazing over, or tired of listening me read, I let him write his words on the board, or use the moveable alphabet to build words, or make patterns out of magna tiles, or work on an art project, etc. In other words, it isn't difficult to sense that it's time to give the head a break and give the hands something productive to do.

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Posted: July 11 2011 at 9:42pm | IP Logged Quote JennGM

When you have a young good reader, do you still do more read-alouds? I think this is the area where I have allowed more independent reading and narration rather than reading aloud and narrate, even though he is younger. When and how do you make that assessment and decision of RA vs. independent?

I know I've asked something similar before....

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Posted: July 11 2011 at 9:49pm | IP Logged Quote SuzanneG

These page counts are what a child reads....total.....whether by themselves or a parent reading TO them. As a child becomes a more fluent reader, they gradually read more and more by themselves. With dd-1, she wasn't reading independently until 8 or so, and we still came pretty close to the page count before that with our read alouds. If I have another "later reader".....I was thinking the other day, they wouldn't get as much read aloud to them as the first child did, but then dh reminded me that I would have THREE other readers in the house who can read aloud to a 1st-3rd grader if they weren't reading on their own.

A small number of pages read on a consistent basis adds up easily!

I have been using this "guideline" for the past couple of years and I am always COMPLETELY surprised by how much we/they read......after compiling a booklist and breaking it down.....it just doesn't seem like they would ever come close to this page count....but they do!   It's really amazing. And, right....we aren't doing grammar exercises, a writing curriculum, or any other sort of supplemental material....which I can see would effect these numbers.

I count.......
:: all non-twaddle, independent reading once they are "fluent" readers
:: read-alouds by mom or others
:: buddy reading
:: audio books
:: challenging and well-written picture books read-aloud and read independently

I just ballparked my 9 yo page-count from her booklist and we're in the range....she's a good reader, so I know it's do-able for her. For my 10 yo, i'm happy with a lower end page-count....with books she enjoys and with books she's challenged with.

Some fun reading from Ambleside:
Read Alouds---from Ambleside

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Posted: July 11 2011 at 9:57pm | IP Logged Quote SuzanneG

JennGM wrote:
When you have a young good reader, do you still do more read-alouds?


As soon as they are able to read independently, they SHOULD!

Here is what we read aloud:

:: fun books we want to enjoy as a family (ie: The Saturdays)

:: things we want to all learn about...through the various grade levels (ie: a history read aloud)

:: extremely challenging material that needs to be read aloud piece-by-piece and it's helpful to have it HEARD....(ie: Robin Hood)

:: Making good use of our time in the car or other time period where we can use an "audio book"

:: Something liturgical...for obvious reasons

:: non-fiction-informational books that are read a bit at a time, that need narration.

:: books/things to read aloud that I want everyone to take turns NARRATIING in front of others, similar to a classroom setting.

I'm sure there are others....i'll post as I think of them.

But, yes....for my girls....when I devise a book list, I'm assuming that they will read everything independently, and then I go through it and see what read alouds will serve various purposes.

HTH,

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Posted: July 11 2011 at 10:09pm | IP Logged Quote Mackfam

JennGM wrote:
When you have a young good reader, do you still do more read-alouds? I think this is the area where I have allowed more independent reading and narration rather than reading aloud and narrate, even though he is younger. When and how do you make that assessment and decision of RA vs. independent?

Once my kids are reading well, most of their reading is independent. There are some considerations I make when considering read alouds:

:: maturity of the child - this varies a lot from child to child and might impact how much/what I ask a child to read

:: general reading ability

:: heaviness/meatiness of a book being considered - I may read aloud a book that is a little meatier.

:: what do the rest of the books in the day look like?

Read alouds here are:

** liturgical year books that are for the whole family to hear
** a history book that is especially good (since all children are studying from the same period)
** a natural history book - we always have a fantastic natural history book going that is seasonally appropriate and these are always read aloud...just because we like it that way!
** a book/selection that I may read aloud so that I can ask an older child to model narrating for younger child.
** family read alouds
** a book that an older child is reading to a younger child
** I like to have at least one meaty read aloud going each year - whether it's me reading, or an audio book - because I think it helps especially NON-auditory learners to develop and fine tune those listening/narrating skills.


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Posted: July 11 2011 at 10:53pm | IP Logged Quote lapazfarm

Just as a comparison for a slower reader, I tend to read aloud more to my dd than most would for a child her age (she will be 10 next month) because she has dyslexia and reading is a chore for her and very slow going. I don't want to slow down her learning because of her reading disability, so the majority of the pages read will be read-alouds for her, which she then narrates (some but not all).
I also ask her to read aloud to me one short selection per day (to work on her decoding skills), and then she has one silent reading book which she narrates to me.
Read alouds here:
Nature stories (such as Burgess or Buckley)
Literature selection (an ongoing chapter book, Shakespeare stories, poetry, etc)
History Stories (This year 50 Famous Stories by Baldwin)
Grammarland (new this year)
Math stories
Saint stories
Bible stories
Art books

As she makes progress in her reading speed dd will gradually be taking over some of the read-alouds as independent reads.


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