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joann10
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| Posted: June 03 2009 at 3:10pm | IP Logged
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Elizabeth has put into words what many of us with "large" families have been feeling lately.
My family has been compared more times than I can count to Jon and Kate Plus 8, and Elizabeth's response to this is just beautiful!
Thank you, Elizabeth! 
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KackyK
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| Posted: June 03 2009 at 3:18pm | IP Logged
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Woohoo! Right on!
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KackyK
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Mary K
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| Posted: June 03 2009 at 3:37pm | IP Logged
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wonderful response elizabeth!
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Mary G
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| Posted: June 03 2009 at 3:42pm | IP Logged
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No kidding ... I was in a family of seven at a time when "large" families were taboo ... we'd get criticisms all the time for having so many kids (!) and did we want to start are own (fill in the blank) team? etc etc We got so many comments that my own siblings think I'm crazy to have 5(!) and my brother with 10 is considered way out there ....  !
I love Elizabeth's charity in her column ... and hope many people read it and take it to heart and try to remember that shows like "Jon and Kate" is "reality" not real living!
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MaryG
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Lisbet
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| Posted: June 03 2009 at 4:01pm | IP Logged
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Loved it! I can't tell you how many times I've been asked if I know the Duggars!!LOL! Someone my husband works at is always telling him how much she loves John and Kate +8, and how our life must be alot like theirs... I had never seen the show until a few weeks ago, and I told him be sure to tell her that we are NOTHING like them, because we actually like each other! LOL!
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Martha
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| Posted: June 03 2009 at 4:19pm | IP Logged
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that's awesome Elizabeth!
If one more person asks me "Do you know the Duggars?" or "Do you know Kate & Jon +8?" I just might scream.
or cry.
because Elizebeth is right, what people see on J&K+8 show is terribly sad.
and no, I don't know them. for some reason peole think everyone who has a large family knows each other - are we supposed to all be related or live in communes or something? Why would I know them? 
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Martha
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MaryM
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| Posted: June 03 2009 at 4:20pm | IP Logged
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Very heartfelt and real post, Elizabeth. 
I hope Kate reads it. 
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Mary M. in Denver
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RamFam
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| Posted: June 03 2009 at 4:46pm | IP Logged
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I just can't help but be heartbroken for this family. This will act as reminder to keep especially in my prayers all large families.
(As an aside, my husband and I have disliked the way Jon and Kate interact with each other from the get go. Unfortunately I see so many marriages with the same communication.)
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Leah
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teachingmyown
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| Posted: June 03 2009 at 7:22pm | IP Logged
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Wonderful article, Elizabeth!!
My kids think that we should do a reality show. Dd13 says it would be a comedy, and not because we are all cracking jokes! Maybe we could fill that middle ground between the Duggars and Jon and Kate. LOL!
We get the Jon and Kate comment all the time too. I haven't ever seen it. I am tempted to try to watch once, just to be able to answer people better when they make comparisons.
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Jody
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| Posted: June 03 2009 at 9:36pm | IP Logged
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I've never seen the Jon and Kate show either but Elizabeth's article was wonderful. Now I'll better know how to respond when people compare our family to theirs.
Jody
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Kristie 4
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| Posted: June 03 2009 at 10:28pm | IP Logged
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Hmmm... when we used to live near Vancouver I would get the (fill in the blank)team comment frequently and I only have 3 kids!!!!
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Kristie in Canada
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Nique
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| Posted: June 04 2009 at 10:13am | IP Logged
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Thanks for letting us know about this great article Joann!
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LisaR
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| Posted: June 04 2009 at 10:33am | IP Logged
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RamFam wrote:
I just can't help but be heartbroken for this family. This will act as reminder to keep especially in my prayers all large families.
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yes, I feel for the children especially in any reality show.
whenever Jon and Kate have been brought up, (usually people asking- "aren't you going to go for 8, like Jon and Kate" ((little do they know I had two miscarriages in the last 9 months)) )I ask them to pray for their family, and really for all families, no matter what size we all need to respect and support eachother.
that very effectively diffuses the "big family" drama!!
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Lisa
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Barbara C.
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| Posted: June 04 2009 at 5:03pm | IP Logged
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I understand that it must be very frustrating to be constantly compared to a reality television family--whether it be the Duggars or the Gosselins.
I also don't think some of the criticisms labeled at John & Kate are always fair, either. I've read people criticizing them for not meeting the standards of regular large families--ones that don't have multiples. As many people have noted around here--"It's not how many you have; it's how many you have under the age of five." That's where the extra stress comes into play.
As Leah alluded, I think Jon & Kate appeal in that their marriage seems more realistic to a lot of people, while Jim Bob and Michelle seem more ideal and unreachable. Jon and Kate make a lot of people feel less guilty.
I think it's very hard, too, to watch just a few episodes of the show and get a full picture of them. For instance, every kid isn't going on ski trips as part of their regular childhood, but skiing is something important to Jon--something that he used to do with his father starting at a young age. So for him to take his kids skiing has a certain context. And while the Gosselins have been able and willing to milk their fame for all its worth--Kate has a point about not wanting the kids to be denied opportunities due to being a large number of multiples.
And I think Kate gets a lot of flack for her basic temperament. She strikes me as the sort that blows up over little things all the time and then lets it go without a grudge, while Jon is the sort that bottles everything up and then really erupts later...when the camera is off.
I think I just have a certain amount of sympathy for the whole situation, and I constantly pray for them to accept the Lord's guidance. And I think if I were part of a large family being compared to the Gosselins I would just say "Our situations are totally different" and leave it at that.
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Barbara
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JodieLyn
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I thought the whole point was that they ARE different. That we ALL ARE DIFFERENT. And to be compared to a family that is many things that you are NOT.. well it's more than a little frustrating. Because not only are there expectations about how you live, but how you interact, and how your kids behave. A family with 2 children, they're usually given the benefit of the doubt so to say, that they'll behave or not and their family size isn't the determining factor.. but to have people assume your kids will behave in a particular way because of what's paraded across a tv screeen.. 
I have my answer to this all thought out.. a nice blank look and a "who?" because we don't have cable and I have never actually seen an episode. And regardless of how any particular family is portrayed on tv.. it does NOT tell you how it is in my family.
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Lisbet
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| Posted: June 04 2009 at 10:13pm | IP Logged
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Quote:
| think Jon & Kate appeal in that their marriage seems more realistic to a lot of people, |
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Really??? I've only seen one episode, and if that is more realistic to most - then - wow wow wow!! I was astounded at how uncomfortable they looked sitting next to one another. (and this was before the scandal broke).
I really cannot imagine having 6 three year olds - I'm sure it is super challenging. I have 5 under 5 right now and it gets crazy - yet it doesn't excuse me or my family from basic charity toward each other.
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Barbara C.
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| Posted: June 04 2009 at 10:25pm | IP Logged
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I think that it is easy to forget the reality of a lot of marriages out there, especially when you are kind of insulated within a certain group of people. For instance, on this Forum there are probably a lot of people who have really rough marriages...maybe even on par with Jon and Kate's if not worse. However, the rules of this Forum silence anything that might appear even slightly disrespectful of husbands. I'm not criticizing; I'm just observing that just by what is allowed to be posted one would think that everyone on this forum has "exceptional" marriages. Only a small number of marriages in reality would be classified as "exceptional" by marriage counselors.
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Barbara
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aussieannie
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Barbara C wrote:
| I think that it is easy to forget the reality of a lot of marriages out there, especially when you are kind of insulated within a certain group of people. |
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I don't know there, I'm far from canonizing material myself though I do try. I'm remorseful when I fail, I pray and continue to work on my weak points. I'm very aware of what's out there and what I struggle with myself.
Barbara C wrote:
| I'm just observing that just by what is allowed to be posted one would think that everyone on this forum has "exceptional" marriages. |
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I've never observed that since I moderate primarily in WPTTL but the need for caution there or on any of the boards is there to protect women and their families. If some details are very personal, it is anonomised. These things are not done out of a sense of pride or create a false reality but out of geninue love and concern, especially when someone is vunerable and going through a difficult time.
Back to the Jon and Kate discussion, though talking generally, I think we live in a generation that if we don't let it 'all hang out' we are somehow not being genuine, humble or truthful. I'm afraid it has been a poor cover for a multitude of sins, scandal to little ones being one that I can think of.
My experience in life is as much as I despise something as not being wholesome or correct etc, I am still subtly affected by it if exposed to it enough and in my own weaker moments I can be less than subtly affected by it! We stopped viewing mainstream TV for good, 8 years ago and I just had this feeling the culture no longer had it's big foot sticking through my doorway, it was a big help and has worked for us personally.
I just tend to think that reality shows that feel they have to show 'everything' because it is real life for them is creating a new reality in the culture I just don't like and certainly doesn't raise it up.
To my original point, at the end of the day 4Real is a public, online forum, it is not the same as privately sharing your life's concerns and weaknesses with a close, supportive friend. I think that is easily forgotten when there is are so many wonderful friends here, but on the boards our conversations are not private, sort of like speaking out in the middle of a crowded street where anyone and everyone can hear.
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: June 05 2009 at 6:12am | IP Logged
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Barbara C. wrote:
I think that it is easy to forget the reality of a lot of marriages out there, especially when you are kind of insulated within a certain group of people. For instance, on this Forum there are probably a lot of people who have really rough marriages...maybe even on par with Jon and Kate's if not worse. However, the rules of this Forum silence anything that might appear even slightly disrespectful of husbands. I'm not criticizing; I'm just observing that just by what is allowed to be posted one would think that everyone on this forum has "exceptional" marriages. Only a small number of marriages in reality would be classified as "exceptional" by marriage counselors.
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While I stand solidly behind NOT disparaging our husbands in a public forum (either here or on TV), I disagree with your perception of the forum. Lots of us have marriages that are struggling or have struggled. Maybe even most of us do. But we choose to continue to strive to react with holiness to the struggles there and we choose prudence when speaking about those struggles. We do this because it honors God and our husbands. Both God and our husbands deserve to be treated that way all the time. We don't vow to honor our husbands only when they are behaving well. There's no caveat in the vows.
Both marriage and motherhood are hard work. If we embrace the work and look to serve instead of serve our selfish desires, that work is God's instrument to refine our souls and make us more like him. For some of us, the knowledge of that truth is what sustains us through the hard times. We remind ourselves and each other that this is not a bad way to suffer and that this "suffering" is ultimately for our benefit.We hold each other to a higher standard than husband-bashing because husband bashing isn't really within the covenant we made with our husbands. What is troublesome about that show and others like it--whether reality or otherwise--is that they glorify a behavior that is really not going to make those people happy, either now or later. And yet lots of viewers (most viewers?) get sucked into thinking that that 's the way everyone behaves and so we should all just settle for that.
To me, it would be great television of Kate sat on the couch and looked at Jon and said, "You know, I have a problem with being short-tempered and just saying whatever comes to mind. Today, I saw you flinch when I cut you to the quick. And I'm so sorry. Will you forgive me and help me to improve?" That does happen in some homes. Moreover, that is a great example for all the kids watching this so-called family show.
Barbara C. wrote:
| As many people have noted around here--"It's not how many you have; it's how many you have under the age of five." That's where the extra stress comes into play. |
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Personally, having three teenagers and a premature infant with five kids in between was far more stressful than having five kids under eight and being pregnant. But I'm sure Kate is stressed. My point is that not all mothers under stress respond that way. Some of them refrain from caving into the urge to whine and complain and recognize that it's not about them. It's about the kids and it's not appropriate or nurturing for Mommy to act like a baby.
Even if someone is paying her to do so because it makes good television and she is more accessible that way.
Barbara C. wrote:
As Leah alluded, I think Jon & Kate appeal in that their marriage seems more realistic to a lot of people, while Jim Bob and Michelle seem more ideal and unreachable. Jon and Kate make a lot of people feel less guilty.
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Of course, the flip side of that is that some people would prefer a peaceful, successful, respectful marriage and the Duggars assure people that if you work hard enough at it and you include God in the mix, it's entirely possible.
Barbara C. wrote:
I think it's very hard, too, to watch just a few episodes of the show and get a full picture of them. For instance, every kid isn't going on ski trips as part of their regular childhood, but skiing is something important to Jon--something that he used to do with his father starting at a young age. So for him to take his kids skiing has a certain context. And while the Gosselins have been able and willing to milk their fame for all its worth--Kate has a point about not wanting the kids to be denied opportunities |
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I have no intention of watching more episodes. I think this show glorifies the selfishness and is so not worth my time.
I went sailing with my father, something he loved and something entirely possible for a Naval officer always living by the water with two kids. My children have never been sailing. I understand that there is a tradeoff and that we don't always get what we want in life, whether we are children wanting something or adults wanting something. Rare is the parent who doesn't sacrifice his desires for his kids. In this case, Jon might have had to delay his want to ski until his large family was a little older. Delayed gratification is not such a bad thing to learn--for father or child. Come to think of it, it wouldn't be such a bad things for a television audience to learn wither.
Barbara C. wrote:
And I think Kate gets a lot of flack for her basic temperament. She strikes me as the sort that blows up over little things all the time and then lets it go without a grudge, while Jon is the sort that bottles everything up and then really erupts later...when the camera is off. |
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We all have tendencies towards certain sins. It's a beautiful thing when we acknowledge those weaknesses and understand that the children God has given to us are the perfect reason to beg for the graces to overcome sin. We can wallow or we can rise to the occasion. And if the pressure of tv and book signings and traveling to speak make it to difficult to overcome those sins and truly nurture her family, perhaps it's time to dial back. Yes, I know what it costs to feed and educate a family of eight children (only in my case, I'm feeding teenage athlete$). I doubt it's necessary for her to leave home to the detriment of her own mental health and the health of her marriage and, ultimately, the health of her children, in order to provide what those children need to thrive.
The point of the article was that Jon and Kate don't represent a "real" large family. They are not the norm. Far too many people come away from that show pitying parents of many children. Sadly, they come away thinking that that's an honest representation of what life has to be like. And it doesn't have to be that way. Of course they deserve our prayers! Just watching inspires most of us to pray for those kids and their parents. But it's a shame that they "appeal" because they seem "realistic." Realistically, we mothers of many don't fly on private jets, we don't have producers suggesting that we respond to our children a certain way, and we don't disrespect our husbands in public (or private, for that matter). It might appeal to some people, but it's not very inspiring.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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chrisv664
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I am not a big fan of Jon and Kate, but I have reluctantly watched with my 14yo daughter. There are some great discussion starters there on marriage and parenting, so in that sense, it has provided some "teachable moments" here. I have recently felt a nudging to pull the plug on this show, and Elizabeth's article coupled with this great discussion has convinced me it is the right thing to do (probably should have done it long ago) I just feel a marriage in crisis should not be on public display... for their children's sake. Thanks to all the ladies who posted here in helping me reach my decision.
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Chris
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: What she said....
