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Mary G
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What I don't like about CLoW is there really is no need for it ... the kids can and should stay for the reading of the readings, responsorial and gospel; they should hear what Father has to say...they can get further clarification, catechesis in their Religious Ed class which should be keyed to the Sunday readings/gospel anyway.
It just doesn't make sense to have a layperson, no matter how educated/well-meaning/well-catechized (which would be hard to find anyway) take over the Priest's role of catechesis.
But, that's just my personal opinion.
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Cindy Mac
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I'm guess what I'm trying to understand why a layperson (who is following a script, not coming up with a lesson on their own) is not qualified to talk to children about the Word of God. Many priest purchase pre-written homilies, and are just reading them to their congregation. Is there a lot of difference between the two? I don't know, maybe I'm missing something.
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JodieLyn
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There are specific rules about *who* may give a homily.. but I'm thinking there may be exceptions anyway..
I'm tired and drawing a blank on what it's called (communion service?).. but when you have the readings and communion is distributed but it's already consecrated hosts.. like when a priest is not available.. but I can't recall if the homily is done by someone else or if it's just not done.
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folklaur
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From the GIRM:
66. The Homily should ordinarily be given by the priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to the deacon, but never to a lay person.65 In particular cases and for a just cause, the homily may even be given by a Bishop or a priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrate.
There is to be a homily on Sundays and holy days of obligation at all Masses that are celebrated with the participation of a congregation; it may not be omitted without a serious reason. It is recommended on other days, especially on the weekdays of Advent, Lent, and the Easter Season, as well as on other festive days and occasions when the people come to church in greater numbers.66Full Text Link
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Elizabeth
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I remember CLOW from my First Holy Communion days in Newport RI. The woman who told us "the story" made such an impression on me that three moves and 6 years later, I asked her to fly to South Carolina and be my confirmation sponsor. She was and still is my earliest and one of my clearest impressions of a woman of holiness.And she made the gospel come alive for all of us. My memories of that quiet time, set apart, are very vivid. There was no tabernacle in that cafeteria on that Navy base, so no one led us away from the presence of the Lord. And I have never, ever questioned the orthodoxy of it all. The priest who allowed it, and with whom this woman was good friends (I saw him many years later when he celebrated her son's wedding) was a young navy chaplain who became John Cardinal O'Connor.
Obviously, I was just a child and it never would have occurred to me that what we were doing was wrong. And in all these years since, I look back on that time and remember nothing except that fruitful seeds were planted there. My parents rarely took me to church after that year and before my teenaged years. So the seed that were sowed in that one opportunity were the seeds that compelled me to read the Word of God and wonder and pray about it every day since and they were the seeds that flowered into following Mrs. W's example and bringing it alive for other children.
Incidentally, the very orthodox former pastor of my current parish also instituted a CLOW program. it never occurred to me to question his judgment--he'd always been "right on" about everything else. My kids didn't go because I preferred to keep them with me. BUT, they'd also heard the gospel from a layperson and discussed it with a layperson (me) ahead of time. The reality is that very few families do catechize in that manner on a regular basis and many children go to CCD only in sacrament years. Maybe the priest saw an opportunity to capitalize on some parents' eagerness to listen without the distraction of their children and sneak in some of the only catechesis they'd get. I know that was the case in my childhood.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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LisaD
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In our parish, we have a very active Children's Liturgy Program. CLOW is offered at the 10:00 Mass and the 12:30 Spanish Mass each Sunday. We have two homilists who are trained by the archdiocese as CLOW homilists. No one other than these two people, or a priest or deacon, may proclaim the Gospel or give the homily for CLOW. THere is a document, published by the Vatican in 1973 that goes into detail about what is and is not allowed at Masses with Children, and specifically states in section 17:
"Sometimes, moreover, if the place itself and the nature of the community permit, it will be appropriate to celebrate the liturgy of the word, including a homily, with the children in a separate, but not too distant, room. Then, before the Eucharistic liturgy begins, the children are led to the place where the adults have meanwhile celebrated their own liturgy of the word."
The wonderful people who coordinate our CLOW are extremely conscientious about doing things the right way, in fact read the document yearly before going on retreat together.
I think that for some families, CLOW can be a wonderful thing. There are families who don't act as primary educators of their children, and whose children are beautifully led to the Gospel of Christ by CLOW done properly.
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Martha
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tina wrote:
| I do wish the priests would take that into consideration when they give their homilies. We are there as families with children of all ages. And we are telling our children to pay attention, so they are listening and will ask questions. |
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AMEN! I will never forget our bishop discussing the "plague of pornography" and hearing my then 5 yr old pipe up and loudly ask, "What's porn gravy?" 
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| I think that for some families, CLOW can be a wonderful thing. There are families who don't act as primary educators of their children, and whose children are beautifully led to the Gospel of Christ by CLOW done properly. |
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Sadly this is probably true.
I absolutely abhor every children mass and CLOW I've expereinced, they just haven't impressed me as being particuliarly orthodox, kwim?
My main reason to keep my children with us in the pew is that I believe families should get at least 1 hour a week together before the Lord and I simply refuse to let my family sacrifice that for just about anything.
And I'll admit in some parishes I've attended they really lay the pressure on to seperate children. Cry room, CLOW, and so forth and it rubs me the wrong way. It's like so many people don't want their kid in the pew with them for whatever reason and it irks them to see other peoples' kids in a pew too? Am I the only one to get half way through a mass and find my kids are nearly the ONLY kids there and suddenly every little noise they make is so much louder? That's such a non-family feeling to me. Not saying I let them whip up a ruckus or anything, but that adult only mood that permeats some masses' aura can really be depressing to a mom. Or at lest this one. Not sure I'm being clear. Just saying my experience... 
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MacBeth
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LisaD wrote:
THere is a document, published by the Vatican in 1973 that goes into detail about what is and is not allowed at Masses with Children, and specifically states in section 17:
"Sometimes, moreover, if the place itself and the nature of the community permit, it will be appropriate to celebrate the liturgy of the word, including a homily, with the children in a separate, but not too distant, room. Then, before the Eucharistic liturgy begins, the children are led to the place where the adults have meanwhile celebrated their own liturgy of the word."
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I have no doubt that many wonderful and well meaning people are involved in CLOW, and that some children and families do benefit. But a careful reading of the document on these liturgies will show that they do not give permission for a lay person--even a lay person trained by the diocese--the right to read the Gospel or give a homily. What is does allow is for a lay person to explain the Gospel to children. Semantics? Perhaps, but historically the church uses words very, very carefully, and I believe that the words of the document were chosen carefully so as not to contradict the GIRM and the Code of Cannon Law. And the GIRM is quite clear on this matter, for obvious reasons.
According to one report (in the article I linked above), there is a small percentage of parishes where a priest or deacon takes care of the CLOW. But even if this were the case, I would be very reluctant to break up my family during Mass. Jesus did not say, "Let the children come to me...unless they are distracting their parents, or unable to sit still, or don't understand what I'm saying." I want my family together, near the Real Presence, hearing the Gospel preached as an integral part of the Mass. I don't want them to ever think that Mass is only for grown-ups, or that it's too hard.
This is a personal decision that we have made as a family (or would make if a CLOW were offered to us). The CLOW is allowed by the Church under certain circumstances, and those who chose to have their children attend are not doing anything wrong . But Tracey asked for the thoughts of members here...sorry to give you all an earful!
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MacBeth
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Elizabeth wrote:
| BUT, they'd also heard the gospel from a layperson and discussed it with a layperson (me) ahead of time. |
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Of course! But, as you know, you were not reading the Gospel during Mass or giving a homily as defined by the GIRM. 
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MaryM
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I've seen this issue from both sides of the fence. I worked as the coordinator for the CLOW program and also of the First Communion Prep program many years ago at our old parish - it was a great "job" for me to make a little income but not leave my children. The program was for 3-6 year olds (those preparing for first communion were not to be participating but were to stay in Mass). I saw some benefits but it never sat quite right with me either. My children only participated in CLOW when I taught - they didn't like being away from me at that age. At our current parish which has it only at one Mass, the younger children never did participate - were not interested and that felt right to us as well.
I know people who came specifically to our old parish for these Masses and because they had a staffed nursery at all Masses. There is a huge component of the attraction for people to not have their children with them during Mass (or a portion of it) as some have mentioned. Though there are also those who are attracted to it for the teaching aspect for young children as well and it could be the only catechesis some are receiving. I would rather see children participate in this and attend Mass than be dropped off for CCD (and never attend Mass) while the parents attend Mass (saw that happen a bit, too.)
Though the CLOW style seems to have grown as the main way to celebrate "Children's Masses" beyond what was probably envisioned, it is currently permitted by the Church in the US. The GIRM (2003) footnote 23, states that special celebrations of Mass should observe the guidelines established for them and directs to the Directory for Masses with Children published by the Vatican in 1973, for Masses with children. The Directory for Masses with Children allows for lay people to give a reflection on the readings to children after the reading of the Gospel in certain circumstances.
People here have expressed a variety of opinions. Some have found it to beneficial and like the program others dislike it and have valid reasons for that. In many ways it is has similarities to the past discussions of Life Teen Masses. It's not everyone's cup of tea so to speak.
Though it is currently permited, the Directory for Masses with Children is not the type of liturgy document that the Holy See is publishing these days. I would not be surprised to see it being pulled or reissued with much stricter guidelines in the future.
Catholics United for the Faith (CUF) has a faith tract on the topic:
"Children's Masses: May Lay People Read the Gospel and Give the Homily?"
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MacBeth
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Ah! [insert enlightened emoticon]
So, the source for the permission for lay readers of the Gospel and homilists is the Lectionary! That's why I have not found it. I guess I'll have to go take a look. Thanks for the research, Mary!
I'm still not convinced that the children's lectionary supersedes the GIRM (or that it ought to, ever), nor am I convinced that a separate CLOW is ever necessary. And I am more convinced, after reading the 3 part article from Adoremus, that the CLOW has born little fruit (present company excluded!).
I have heard the Eucharistic Prayer from the Lectionary for Masses with Children...it's so dumbed-down I can't believe it's licit. Eh...what do I know? 
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Mary G
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MacBeth wrote:
Eh...what do I know?
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Alot, apparently! And since I agree with you, that makes your info even better!
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donnalynn
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Mackfam
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Nope.
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Martha
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No Donna, you are not crazy.
That or you'll have company in the asylum, because I tend to agree with you.
I guess I'm just so frustrated. Life with lots of littles has really given me a different perspective. I'm just so sick and tired of constantly having my family pulled apart. Husbands leave the home to work, kids leave for this and that, and I just wish church was the one place we can be together and it's often not. There's women's gatherings (sans kids 95% of the time), RE for different grades, mens' things (sans wife and kids most of the time), a mass for this and that, teen things, preschool things, and the list goes on ad nauseum.
Where's the FAMILY?!
Everyone is constantly saying they need "their time", but I just don't get it. Most people have jobs and school that take them away 8 - 10 hours a day and who knows how many hobbies and extracurriculiar that divide their family on any given week. How could they need more time apart??? I'm not being hateful of them. I don't think everyone has to do everything together or the way I do it, but I just honestly don't get that pervasive attitude and how it's often expected that I should feel the same. It saddens me greatly that in order to really be "active" in a parish that's what I would have to do.
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folklaur
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Martha wrote:
Where's the FAMILY?!
Everyone is constantly saying they need "their time", but I just don't get it. Most people have jobs and school that take them away 8 - 10 hours a day and who knows how many hobbies and extracurriculiar that divide their family on any given week. How could they need more time apart??? I'm not being hateful of them. I don't think everyone has to do everything together or the way I do it, but I just honestly don't get that pervasive attitude and how it's often expected that I should feel the same. It saddens me greatly that in order to really be "active" in a parish that's what I would have to do. |
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 Well said.
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MacBeth
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donnalynn wrote:
This painting was given to me by mother as a small card.
...Am I crazy? |
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Reminds me of the old Monty Python skit where the pope points out to Michaelangelo that there were not 28 disciples and a kangaroo at the last supper.
And as for the rest, I am sure you are not crazy. Those feelings are the same ones I get.  I am not (usually  ) paranoid, and I am not a conspiracy theorist, but the evidence is there...some folks are very interested in changing the church, and will use loopholes like this to further their agenda.
OTOH, I do applaud folks who are approached to work within the CLOW and agree, because they want it done right.
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LeeAnn
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I am the coordinator of religious education for preschool through fifth grade at my parish. I'm a volunteer. It's a small parish of about 300 households. I was asked by the pastor to consider starting a CLOW this fall. I am leery of it. First, I agree that if such a program occurs it should only be for those children too young for Communion. Second, absolutely no curriculum or written material was suggested to me for running such a program. I talked with another catechist who used to run CLOW at her old parish and she didn't seem to understand my issue. In her opinion, you just read the readings (or had the kids read them if they are old enough) and then "explained it to them at their level." OK, that is giving a homily and without a script! I think some parishes are better at coming up with training and guidance for CLoW than others. Obviously mine is not there yet, so it's not something I'm going to do--I have enough to take care of as it is. The main feeling I get from people who want CLoW is that it would be nice to be able to enjoy the Mass without having to worry about noisy toddlers and bored younger kids. Trust me, I know this. I have spent more Masses lately in the parish hall with my two year old and the video hookup of the mass than I have in the pew. Yes, my children get bored too, but I don't think they learn to enjoy and appreciate the Mass for what it is by being taken out regularly to be entertained by someone like me with no theological training. Although I love God and His Church very much, I don't pretend to have the charism to preach that a priest does.
My personal preferences: I would rather a parish offer a paid nursery staff for the youngest kids (babies, toddlers & preschoolers) or religious ed for 3 & 4 year old preschoolers during Mass. I think these are better options than Children's Liturgy of the Word, partly because they don't pretend to be Mass Lite and also they don't interrupt the prayers of the Mass with innumerable sending rites and so on.
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donnalynn wrote:
I am mostly looking at the perception of the child - I don't know that a respect and an awe for the liturgy is being instilled in young people. Most of my observations in my above post are unrelated to one another - but if all these things are in the religious life of a child - it may result in a skewed view.
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I think the involvement of lay people at all levels changes our views in some ways...when I was a child, CCD was taught on Sundays right after Mass by seminarians and religious sisters. When we move to NY, I was shocked to discover that regular volunteers (including my mother, thank God!) would be teaching CCD. Things do change...and yes, the children do notice.
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Children's Liturgy
